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pucho812

eucon protocol
« on: March 19, 2015, 07:38:11 PM »
anyone have any insight on this? might not even be the best place for it. But trying to get any info I can for a project maybe even a SDK...
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.


ruffrecords

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 06:54:07 AM »
Sounds to me like 21st century midi.

Cheers

Ian

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2015, 07:33:02 AM »
There's a guy on the Reaper forums that reversed engineered EuCon for use in Reaper.  Geoff Waddington I think.  You might try to contact him.

Here's the thread:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122509


pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2015, 10:27:57 AM »
Well from what I know
eucon has over 1024 steps of resolution vs midi which is 127
Eucon was developed by euphonix
Eucon can be found in software like pro tools, logic, etc but only one company euphonix makes hardware
euphonix was purchased by digidesign/avid
Eucon hardware is only made by avid.
As mentioned many daws support their hardware

I am wondering the possibilities of a couple things with it,

1.  using it as audio fader control
2. the legality of step one as to my knowledge avid is not releasing that tech to other control manufactures. Obviously obtainign some sort of licensing to do it would be critical but would they even play ball
3. would it matter if it was just for home brew use?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 10:31:15 AM by pucho812 »
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 03:04:23 PM »
I found an AES paper giving an high level overview of the protocol: https://www.avid.com/static//resources/common/documents/euph_aes_eucon_paper_oct06.pdf

It makes some mentions of an SDK, I did some search but didn't find anything, assuming it's now under AVIDs control. I found another introduction of the protocol with a bit more detail as well: ftp://88.177.137.74/FTPpublic/E/Euphonix/Softs/Artist%20series/EuConDocumentation/GettingStartedWithEuCon.pdf

Eucon is apparently built on top of TCP/IP, so with these references and something like Wireshark or tcpdump you may be able to figure it out.

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 04:34:57 PM »
I found this
http://www.avid.com/US/partners/developer-partners

further down the rabbit hole
Avid’s EUCON Control builds on the exciting innovations of Euphonix to allow compatible software applications to communicate with Avid control surfaces. Avid is dedicated to supporting EUCON, broadening its reach and enhancing its features. If you are interested in adding EUCON support to your application, Avid wants to hear from you.

EUCON includes the following features and benefits:

    High-speed Ethernet networked control including Gigabit Ethernet
    High-resolution (16-bit) fader & knob control
    Control includes EUCON, HUI & Mackie Control Protocols
    EUCON transports trackball & keyboard over Ethernet simplifying cabling
    MacOS and PC Compatibility
    Controls multiple workstations & applications simultaneously
    Control switches to match software application
    Support from industry-leading applications including major digital audio workstations.
    Allows hardware surface direct access to software application command sets
    Allows DAW plug-in control from channel strips
    Supports multi-format metering, EQ & Pan curve displays with EUCON aware software applications
    Works with Euphonix Artist Series

All well and good but I am not interested in adding eucon to my software, I am interested in adding eucon to hardware other then an artist mix. I am of the impression aviod would not want such a venture.  but then again if it's just for homebrew use?
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

gyraf

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 02:30:15 AM »
I Don't see any problem in adapting ANY hardware/software protocol for ANY purpose.

As I see it, the only way you can end up in trouble is if you market it under the Eucon name. So nickname it something different.

An example of this is e.g. the alternative company converters for protools (e.g. DAD) at the time where PT hardware was the hardware dongle for their software, and they used a proprietary hardware interface to try to lock everyone else out.

Open-source Eucon hardware would be a great addition to diy....

Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2015, 11:34:40 AM »

well lets look a the practical  application. if you could get eucon to control your faders(analog console faders) then in theory you would have your automation recorded and played back via the daw. As long as eucon is in the daw then any automation upgrades are basically unnecessary.   If you set up the daw to output pre-fader directly to the converter then any moves that happen only effect the analog side and the output of the daw remains the same.

As for seeing a problem I bet avid would if it was ever on the market as an official product. This is even if we called it something else.
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2015, 05:33:46 PM »
I think the big issue is there is only one company out their making eucon hardware controlers, AVID. I think since it's their IP they want to keep it that way.
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

gyraf

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 12:51:44 AM »
Yes, but they can't stop you from making (or marketing) something compatible, unless they have a straight patent on the core technology. Which, in such case, must be circumvented.

There's no law against accidental compatibility :-)

The only way to keep competition out is to obfuscate the protocol, or to change protocol regularly to "unfit" competing products. But this strategy is limited in success when the standards are already implemented in several different products.

Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..


audiomixer

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 09:56:53 AM »
as far as I understand it mergings pyramix DAW does talk EUCON, so I doubt it that the protocol is regularly changed at will or obfuscated. It's not just AVID / Protools closed source. I am rather sure you could easily wiretap into it and decode the relevant parts quickly. intercepting ethernet packets is doable, usually they will contain human readable strings.
I would be interested in your project at hand by the way.

cheers,

Michael

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2015, 10:18:38 AM »
Hey

If it's to drive audio fader (with servo) the MCU protocol is fine.
Fader is 16bit pitchbend (HUI is 8 with two CC).
The MCU is limited at 9bit (512 step) but it's an hardware limitation, data still 16bit.
In my automated fader proto I use 12 bit ADDA, for the moment due to jitter I run 9bit, but it's a PTP proto with long and non shielded wire, i think I will end up at 10bit (1024 step) and with some luck at 11bit.
9bit-512 step is 1/5mm in a 100mm range which in some manner is more than enough.
In other hand "recal precision" is also an important factor.
I run analogue PI driver with excellent result... +/- 0.01dB between two automation read pass.

Zam

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 10:22:18 AM »
It would be to drive an audio fader. Does pro tools support mcu? I don't think so...
Eucon is in many a software but only avid makes any hardware.  Rumor has it this has already been done by the likes of audient, but not sure if they have it out or what..
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2015, 10:49:47 AM »
Does pro tools support mcu? I don't think so...

I just have a look... I think your right, only HUI, ppl have to switch MCU surface to HUI mode !!!
What a shame in 2015, what is the problem to implement MCU in software when you already implement HUI, it's so close except for the 16 bit fader, each times I read about avid/protool tells me "NEVER BUY THIS"

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2015, 12:39:56 PM »
Yeah but I mainly deal in avid/pro tools, well at least we do here in the U.S. so eucon would be the way to go...
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2015, 01:45:49 PM »
please forget all I say previously !!! my apologise.
I just read again doc about HUI protocol.
Fader is two CC MSB LSB, and it should be a 14bit data (128x128). so same precision as MCU PitchBend
The hardware still limited at 9bit and not 8 like I said
I write my code over MCU because it's more easy to handle PB value.
I will test and try HUI protocole in 10bit.
Best
Zam

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2015, 03:06:39 PM »
Ok I just check again... and now i remember why I go with MCU protocol for my automated fader

In Digital performer when monitoring (in HUI mode) CC fader value the DAW send to controller, i get 128 value for one CC and only 4 value for the second (0,32,64,96), which mean 128x4 --> 512 step --> 9bit
In MCU mode the DAW return a full PB range from -8192 to +8190 so with appropriate ADDA from/to PID controller you can go better than 9

Zam



pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2015, 04:21:20 PM »
Pro Tools does not use MCU nor does it allow for it...
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2015, 04:55:24 PM »
Yes but it run HUI which is 9bit. Is that not enough ?
neve swift mix run HUI 9 bit
tonelux shadowmix run HUI 9bit
don't know about the API

I need more evaluation/experimentation with my proto, but when monitoring midi data, i confirm it's difficult to move the fader by hand without jumping two value in 9bit... and no i'm not a shaking old man. It's 0.2mm!!!
At 10 bit you have 0.1mm step hoping you don't have jitter in your digital system, need perfect PSU grounding etc...
But human jitter is more in the 8bit range here :)

Zam
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:59:02 PM by zamproject »

pucho812

Re: eucon protocol
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2015, 08:33:24 PM »
Here is where hui is not enough.. In pro tools hui is limited to a max of 32 physical faders... that is not because of hui, that is because avid want's you to buy avid which is eucon. Also in  pro tools 11  hui is not recomended although it is in the software. Hui will be phased out by avid.

So for me to get 48faders+ I need eucon.
Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose.