Donald trump. what is your take on him?
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Phrazemaster
Well-known member
We're supposed to be civil because we value kindness and respect. There is no irony here at all. The behavior of the president-elect is not to be compared to our behavior - he is not a priest or moral compass. Even JFK is purported to have had affairs and have people killed. If you want to play that game, how many of you deleted hundreds of thousands of emails in an attempt to cover up....something?Script said:
The members who are expressing support for Trump are not hypocrites. I voted for him for very different and logical reasons, none of which had to do with being an idiot or a racist or agreeing with his inflammatory statements. I simply felt Hillary was a snake who was part of the illuminati and who would continue our profound slide into destruction. Maybe Trump is worse - but to me he was a chance at potentially positive change. However my state electoral college will be voting for Hillary so my vote didn't count anyway.
I get some of you really hate the guy. You're wasting your time taking it out on fellow members you disagree with. Sorry you don't like what happened.
I wonder if instead of fear-mongering and hate mongering it's possible to discuss potential good to come from what happened. Otherwise if all you want to do is grouse and hate then this thread should be closed and you can find some other avenue to vent.
I was heartened he wants to improve Obamacare. It was going to cost me around $3000/year with NO benefit until I also met an additional $4500 deductible. I have chosen to pay the penalty fine the last 3 years rather than subject myself to that. What a joke - I can't afford healthcare so fine me. Despicable.
Get that $7500/year for nothing unless my medical bills exceeded $4500 for the year, at which point the clock resets again for the next year. What a joke, what personal theft. That's a damned expensive emergency insurance. That's almost a car payment a month for NO BENEFIT. If Mr. T can help overhaul that, its a good thing.
What other possible good can come of this?
Phrazemaster said:
My needling of JR on this board goes back almost to the beginning of the board. When he contradicts himself, when he is contradicted by fact, when he takes positions that are so tortuously assembled for the purpose of fitting a worldview rather than fitting evidence (his opposition to the notion of human-caused global warming being the prime example), I tend to point it out here on the board--that is, when I bother to dive in to the political threads. I don't expect JR to change--evidence suggests he is determined to see the world the way he believes the world to be, and he will brook no evidence to the contrary--and maybe that's all the more reason to point out his foibles an missteps. For they aren't just his--much of what comes from JR comes from a lot of America's right wing. It's sad how much belief is stacked upon piles of lies so numerous and ingrained that they generally can't be washed away by actual facts. That is why, as I noted upstream, I think American right wing politics is more of a religion than a rational engagement in public discourse anymore. Belief has surmounted empirical evidence. JR, to his credit, is far more rational than many of his fellow parishioners, but nonetheless entrenched in blind, unwavering belief.
As to the second point: there have been plenty of rotten leaders who have done good things. Supporting them for the "good" they do means you end up supporting all the vile things as well. Populist (or faux-populist) movements and leaders generally build on some very real problems but too often tangle them up with real vileness--the KKK comes to mind (back in the old days); a Georgia governor of yore, Tom Watson, would be a good example of a garden variety populist who transformed into a virulent racist for political advantage.
And franky, saying Trump might do some good things is not enough to support him. The base on which he's built his rise is too vile, the faces with which he's filling his cabinet are too loony, his conflicts of interest are far too far-reaching for me to cheer him on in anything. The biggest mistake you can make in dealing with Trump is pretending that everything's "normal." Go back and read that Karl Rove quote I posted somewhere up thread. Bannon is like Karl Rove with swastika tattoos. "Normal" is not their game, and once you play "normal," you've already lost.
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
Phrazemaster said:
"is not to be compared"? Says who? You?
Did you miss the videos with people attacking Muslims verbally (and recently physically in the NY subway) while attributing their right to do so to Trump's election win? Did you miss the video of the neo-nazis nazi-salute while yelling "Heil Trump"?
Now, I'm not saying you are like every other Trump voter, but let me do what many do, and some here on the forum, and lump you together with "conservatives", and again note the irony in how Obama is supposedly responsible for dividing the country, by merely having a beer with the wrong crowd or implying that a crime had a racist component - yet when it's Trump it's not his fault that neo-nazis cheer him.
I'm sorry dude, I have no idea who you are in real life, but when there's talk of registering people according to faith etc not only Jews get nervous. Rhetoric does have an effect on a population, and this "not to be compared to" is just nonsense. It's utterly gullible to think that a population that is swayed by the bad rhetoric of Trump's is somehow then capable of moderating that into civil discourse and action. The only question is to what degree we'll see negative effects of his rhetoric, not "if".
But fair enough, Iet's view this from a different perspective instead:
At what point do you think a political leader has gone too far in his rhetoric? (and bear in mind that people are either influenced by said rhetoric or are immune to it, as a whole).
Phrazemaster said:
The above isn't what would have made you a hypocrite. It was clearly stated what was ironic, and it wasn't the above.
But since you're now talking about the reasons for why you voted for him, I'll just point out that you're not getting to chose which parts of Trump's campaign promises he will make into actual policy. That's not your choice, that's his. And therefore if he - hypothetically - begins to not let Muslims into the country (period) or sets up a registry for Muslims, then, even if you didn't vote for him for those reasons, you would be responsible for it. You enabled that to happen.
So fine, I get it, at this point you probably think that was a ridiculous example that's not going to materialize. Ok, let's say it doesn't. You're still left with any repercussions of his election as being partly your responsibility to the degree which you could have reasonably foreseen such consequences. I warned many people of the dangerous rhetoric he spouted in the campaign, and as I said we're already seeing some consequences thereof, and 'yes', you're absolutely responsible for that.
As Hodad said, there have been leaders that have done good for their people while also doing bad for their people. If they were chosen then the people that chose them are responsible for it all. You don't get to pick and choose. Heck, take Hamas in the middle east as an example: Your average conservative in the US would claim that it is purely a sub-state terrorist organization that needs to be eradicated, where in reality not only was Hamas democratically elected in Gaza but was so because of the support it gave its residents. That doesn't negate that it was a terrorist organization, but we (conservatives rather) have no problem at all assigning guilt to everyone who voted for Hamas simply because of the bad things it also did, regardless of whether or not the voters chose Hamas for the good things it did. See how that works?
As a brown person I will exercise my right to blame people who allow the fomentation of hatred through rhetoric with the excuse of actually wanting something else which is of greater importance to them than this hatred is to me. Because if it's not ignorance then that's what it boils down to.
Phrazemaster said:
How would you know, the man seems to lie about everything!? Did you vote for Bernie in the primary?
Phrazemaster said:
There's that irony again.....
Phrazemaster said:
See, it seems to me that there's apparently a fine line that isn't so fine where simply stating why and how we disagree with Trump voters suddenly becomes "hate". Did you notice that?
Do you really thing I literally hate you or J.R.? Is that really what you truly believe?
Because if you don't, then not surprisingly you are also guilty of the "fear-mongering and hate-mongering" and hyperbole that your candidate was responsible for. Again quite ironic I would say. I think those of us who have criticized Trump-supporters have been pretty clear in our argumentation and clear in what our reasoning was. It's up to anyone to attack our arguments. You saying it amounts to hate is just devolving the conversation you say you wish to elevate.
Again: I never accused anyone here of hating another member, nor do I hate anyone here.
hodad said:
F scott fitzgerald said:
I really hate to argue with people about me... and I won't start now.
Do not interpret my brief withdrawal from this thread as open season to pile on with more person attacks. As a mod I almost gonged a few attacks against another forum member recently but let them go and they dissipated. Perhaps like the broken window theory of policing I should get a little stricter. Some forums just prohibit political discussion entirely because of the difficulty to manage. This place was like the wild west when I first joined, much kinder now. I am proud of the behavior of most members here.
I am not blindly following some ideology, and find it remarkable that the personal attacks have shifted from calling me racist to now calling me alt-right. I had to google alt-right at first to figure out what that even meant. On social media one angry lady called me a drummer trying to insult me. 8) (The strategy of identity politics didn't work this election cycle).
I have been critical of president Obama not because he was black, but because his policy is often flawed. I have a long track record and my opinion statements are in the record here so to speak. I have even agreed with him once or twice. :
For example: I said the ACA was based on flawed economic models. I did not accuse them of intentional deception, but after the fact the lead ACA consultant has publicly admitted as much. Any fair observation of how the ACA has played out to date supports my assessment made years ago.
Another example was my criticism of the Obama administration for pulling completely out of Iraq years ago. I thought that was unwise in light of the stresses experienced by a fledgling democracy. Not very surprising the Shia majority, lost support from the disenfranchised Sunni minority and ISIS gained ground in Mosul and western Iraq. Now revealing the hypocrisy of what appears to be politically motivated strategy, we now have thousands of US soldiers in harms way in Iraq without a status of forces agreement (the excuse given for pulling out completely). We lost our first US soldier in Syria the other day.
You are free to dislike me, but please keep the attacks and insults fact based. If you guys were attacking other members like you do me, I would have deleted your posts already. I still may if posters can't control themselves better in the future.
The increasing enmity here is a reflection of similar partisan discontent from the losing side in the country as a whole. This commonly happens after every election decided by close votes. Don't think I was happy after the last two presidential elections, but I didn't get abusive to forum members (or anybody). The anger from the losing side seems different this time, I suspect a symptom of how much our culture has changed in recent years, not for the better IMO.
This thread seems to have run its course but I will not lock it (yet) since I believe in free speech, just keep it civil please. Thank you to the handful who have been supportive of my positions, I appreciate it, but I do not expect forum members to expose themselves to the same venom I get for engaging. (Maybe we need secret "like" buttons, like the secret ballot. 8) )
JR
PS: It still looks to me like some people here "really" enjoy arguing, I don't. Especially when it doesn't seem to make any difference. We clearly have multiple different world views here. Try to see all sides. You don't have to embrace them all but at least try to understand them without summarily dismissing different views as always coming from ignorance or blind allegiance to opinion leaders (while that seems to explain many).
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mattiasNYC
Guest
JohnRoberts said:
I asked this before, and you ignored it then just as you will this time:
Did Obama suggest, during his campaigns, to bar Christians from entering the US?
Did he imply that the Canadians are drug-peddling rapist criminals?
Did he imply that Christians harbor and protect Christian terrorists?
Did he during his rallies support punching people in the face?
Did he say the election would have been rigged should he lose?
Did he threaten to incarcerate his political opponent?
Did he accuse his political opponent's spouse of being a sex criminal?
Did he admit on tape to having groped women without their permission?
When you refuse to acknowledge even the above, is it so surprising to see people calling you on such nonsense?
Other than being ticked off about hearing the same falsehoods and distortions repeated time and again, I'm not particularly angry. I'm actually much more concerned than angry. I see a very real threat to this nation from the incoming administration.
And I'd not accuse JR of being alt-right. I don't know that anyone here did. I will, however, point out (possibly again--it's been a very long thread) that Trump did not rise out of nothing--he is the product of 4 decades of dog whistles and whisper campaigns from the GOP, all the conspiracy theories and lies that were openly or covertly encouraged by the right-wing power structure. All the gleeful hypocrisy and reveling in ignorance--that is the modern Republican party. It doesn't matter if you're a relatively reasonable R or not, it is your party and you own it.
I've listened to more than my fair share of right wing talk radio over the years, and I sadly know more than one alt-right type--and yeah, they do love them some Nazis. But it's not new, it's just out in the open now. Trump is like the GOP's picture of Dorian Grey--he embodies all the ugliness they've tried to keep hidden for so many decades.
And I'd not accuse JR of being alt-right. I don't know that anyone here did. I will, however, point out (possibly again--it's been a very long thread) that Trump did not rise out of nothing--he is the product of 4 decades of dog whistles and whisper campaigns from the GOP, all the conspiracy theories and lies that were openly or covertly encouraged by the right-wing power structure. All the gleeful hypocrisy and reveling in ignorance--that is the modern Republican party. It doesn't matter if you're a relatively reasonable R or not, it is your party and you own it.
I've listened to more than my fair share of right wing talk radio over the years, and I sadly know more than one alt-right type--and yeah, they do love them some Nazis. But it's not new, it's just out in the open now. Trump is like the GOP's picture of Dorian Grey--he embodies all the ugliness they've tried to keep hidden for so many decades.
For what it's worth..................
The primary function of this forum is for the exchange of ideas on recording equipment and music, the Brewery is only a secondary function. We should not spoil the primary function over issues on the secondary function.
I have found from experience, that if arguments are carefully put in an effective and kindly manner, then sometimes people have a change of mind weeks or months later. If however, people are challenged aggressively and backed into a corner, then views become hardened and entrenched. Then it's just ego versus ego.
You may have ideas that you are convinced are right and be an impassioned advocate, but if you fail to take into account human psychology, then you are wasting your time, no matter how cogent your argument may be.
In the end the voters take collective responsibility as voting is a mass average phenomena. The last time I looked, voting was a fundamental freedom in the West, we are not obliged to justify our choices to anyone, least of all to members of this forum, as yet there are no "Thought Police". I think that for most members here, getting annoyed and personal is crossing a line and should be resisted, it is also pointless and poor psychology.
In the real world, challenging views on this forum is just a drop in the ocean, who's listening? (The C.I.A. maybe?)
DaveP
The primary function of this forum is for the exchange of ideas on recording equipment and music, the Brewery is only a secondary function. We should not spoil the primary function over issues on the secondary function.
I have found from experience, that if arguments are carefully put in an effective and kindly manner, then sometimes people have a change of mind weeks or months later. If however, people are challenged aggressively and backed into a corner, then views become hardened and entrenched. Then it's just ego versus ego.
You may have ideas that you are convinced are right and be an impassioned advocate, but if you fail to take into account human psychology, then you are wasting your time, no matter how cogent your argument may be.
In the end the voters take collective responsibility as voting is a mass average phenomena. The last time I looked, voting was a fundamental freedom in the West, we are not obliged to justify our choices to anyone, least of all to members of this forum, as yet there are no "Thought Police". I think that for most members here, getting annoyed and personal is crossing a line and should be resisted, it is also pointless and poor psychology.
In the real world, challenging views on this forum is just a drop in the ocean, who's listening? (The C.I.A. maybe?
)DaveP
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mattiasNYC
Guest
DaveP said:For what it's worth..................
The primary function of this forum is for the exchange of ideas on recording equipment and music, the Brewery is only a secondary function. We should not spoil the primary function over issues on the secondary function.
I have found from experience, that if arguments are carefully put in an effective and kindly manner, then sometimes people have a change of mind weeks or months later. If however, people are challenged aggressively and backed into a corner, then views become hardened and entrenched. Then it's just ego versus ego.
You may have ideas that you are convinced are right and be an impassioned advocate, but if you fail to take into account human psychology, then you are wasting your time, no matter how cogent your argument may be.
In the end the voters take collective responsibility as voting is a mass average phenomena. The last time I looked, voting was a fundamental freedom in the West, we are not obliged to justify our choices to anyone, least of all to members of this forum, as yet there are no "Thought Police". I think that for most members here, getting annoyed and personal is crossing a line and should be resisted, it is also pointless and poor psychology.
In the real world, challenging views on this forum is just a drop in the ocean, who's listening? (The C.I.A. maybe?
DaveP
I could respond, but I suppose I'm not supposed to.
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mattiasNYC
Guest
Script said:
You're saying that lumping people together foments hatred? So lumping all charity-workers together foments hatred?
Just what is it you think I was saying?
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
Script said:
Do you think I do?
dmp
Well-known member
I think it is important to keep in mind that you cannot force a change on anyone else's mind. If you let your happiness be ruined by the beliefs of others you are only causing suffering in yourself. It is best to to be informed and active, yet polite and accepting that other people may disagree with you. Once your arguments become personal, you are less likely to change the mind of anyone else, anyhow.
It is much better to discuss with facts and ideas rather than insults or accusations. Even if no one acknowledges that their mind has been changed, a discussion may broaden everyone's mind. Maintaining an open mind is a noble pursuit.
I would say that a discussion like this thread (mostly courteous) with participants from varied backgrounds is good and something that is sorely missing in the USA. Primarily the content posted here has been about facts and issues. Much better than the average I would say, where most people have found their echo chamber in the media and don't venture outside.
Calling conservatives "racist" or "fascist" or calling liberals "snowflakes" or "baboons" doesn't add anything to the discussion it only gets people more polarized and less likely to be open minded. In my opinion, the people pushing the fake news and propaganda over real news are very happy with this outcome.
It is much better to discuss with facts and ideas rather than insults or accusations. Even if no one acknowledges that their mind has been changed, a discussion may broaden everyone's mind. Maintaining an open mind is a noble pursuit.
I would say that a discussion like this thread (mostly courteous) with participants from varied backgrounds is good and something that is sorely missing in the USA. Primarily the content posted here has been about facts and issues. Much better than the average I would say, where most people have found their echo chamber in the media and don't venture outside.
Calling conservatives "racist" or "fascist" or calling liberals "snowflakes" or "baboons" doesn't add anything to the discussion it only gets people more polarized and less likely to be open minded. In my opinion, the people pushing the fake news and propaganda over real news are very happy with this outcome.
I was reading some translated bits of an article from a German magazine:
https://www.dasmagazin.ch/2016/12/03/ich-habe-nur-gezeigt-dass-es-die-bombe-gibt/
One thing that kind of jumped out at me was this tiny bit:
“Trump's conspicuous contradictions, his often criticized attitude, and the resulting immense amount of different messages suddenly turn out to be his great advantage: each voter sees only the message they want. "
Post-fact indeed.
It put me to mind of somewhere upstream when JR said that Trump obviously said certain things just because he was campaigning. But of course Trump said many things that were either contradictory or varying greatly in degree of severity (a better word fails me.) So who is right in interpreting Trump? The folks who believed that global warming is a Chinese hoax and the Trump would build a big wall? That he'd drain the swamp? That there might be a human element to global climate change? It got him elected (though it didn't come close to winning him the popular vote), but what did the people who voted for him elect? I think it's fair to say that many who voted for him have completely different views of the "true" Trump, and not a one of them knows what a Trump presidency will actually mean.
https://www.dasmagazin.ch/2016/12/03/ich-habe-nur-gezeigt-dass-es-die-bombe-gibt/
One thing that kind of jumped out at me was this tiny bit:
“Trump's conspicuous contradictions, his often criticized attitude, and the resulting immense amount of different messages suddenly turn out to be his great advantage: each voter sees only the message they want. "
Post-fact indeed.
It put me to mind of somewhere upstream when JR said that Trump obviously said certain things just because he was campaigning. But of course Trump said many things that were either contradictory or varying greatly in degree of severity (a better word fails me.) So who is right in interpreting Trump? The folks who believed that global warming is a Chinese hoax and the Trump would build a big wall? That he'd drain the swamp? That there might be a human element to global climate change? It got him elected (though it didn't come close to winning him the popular vote), but what did the people who voted for him elect? I think it's fair to say that many who voted for him have completely different views of the "true" Trump, and not a one of them knows what a Trump presidency will actually mean.
mattamatta
Well-known member
On the subject of keeping your political discussions going without devolving into nastiness, I just wanted to say to you all that for a long time now I've really enjoyed reading brewery discussions here because you've been largely able to do it and keep it civil enough that it doesn't have to stop.
There's such an interesting world spread here that I don't get on other forums, and you can actually argue the relative merits of socialism without getting too out of hand (just a little sometimes, eh?). It has been interesting reading about European events like Brexit with unique views from European members, as well as things like the US elections with opposing and varied views from both at home and abroad.
I don't think I've ever posted in any of these threads, but for a long time now I've appreciated what goes on here in The Brewery and it's time I said so. I hope it can always stay that way. If ever a thread starts to get out of hand, just remember that more than the people actively arguing are reading it, and I speak for all of us lurkers (self-appointed representative) when I say that we do appreciate it.
There's such an interesting world spread here that I don't get on other forums, and you can actually argue the relative merits of socialism without getting too out of hand (just a little sometimes, eh?). It has been interesting reading about European events like Brexit with unique views from European members, as well as things like the US elections with opposing and varied views from both at home and abroad.
I don't think I've ever posted in any of these threads, but for a long time now I've appreciated what goes on here in The Brewery and it's time I said so. I hope it can always stay that way. If ever a thread starts to get out of hand, just remember that more than the people actively arguing are reading it, and I speak for all of us lurkers (self-appointed representative) when I say that we do appreciate it.
M
mattiasNYC
Guest
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mattiasNYC
Guest
And on the topic of using reasoning and fact rather than emotion when discussing politics:
We Tracked Down A Fake-News Creator In The Suburbs. Here's What We Learned
And speaking of fake news having actual repercussions:
Pizzagate
We Tracked Down A Fake-News Creator In The Suburbs. Here's What We Learned
And speaking of fake news having actual repercussions:
Pizzagate
