Donald trump. what is your take on him?

Well, the repeal effort is happening predictably.

I wish the Republican legislative branch would just come out and admit "We don't believe the government should be involved with health care (unless you are a woman, of course)." Then the lack of a viable alternative  after 7 years of pleas from Congress makes sense, as they want the tax cuts to the 0.1% to go through as quickly as possible (which they can do through reconciliation). Whether millions lose their insurance is besides the point.

I don't know why, in this new era of the Republican "mandate", they aren't clear with their intentions, as it would absolve everyone from playing these games of smoke and mirrors.

DaveP said:

As in getting things done.  But avoiding ruling the world :

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As for ruling the world we'll see. For now I'd say we should look at how the world operates, and take his wealth into account along with his business connections. With that context I don't really think he's not going to "rule the world".

DaveP said:

You like to extrapolate what I say into some area I was never in, because it suits your view of conservatives, not smart.  I don't think there ever were any "good old days" for the record, before WW2 there was the Depression.

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I think you slightly misunderstand my sentiment. But just take a step back and re-read what you yourself wrote:

"all public taste and morality has gone south since the war. "

So taking the above at face value, I would disagree first of all because on average we're probably a more moral society now than before, and secondly because the bigger moral issues have been "improved". Now, my point wasn't that you endorse racism, obviously it wasn't and obviously I don't think you do. My point was that conservatives tend to bring up exactly what you did, namely that women behave less femininely than they did, and they then juxtapose that exactly to morality or decency etc. And I'm merely noting that it's curious that that's where the mind is drawn and that those are the examples given rather than say "You know what, I think morally we're better off now because the worst things we had, lynchings and racial segregation and inequality for women; all of that we've improved greatly", and instead the expression by conservatives seems to be missing "modest women". Obviously this is anecdotal.

(Incidentally, since we are (I am) talking conservatism, the BBC documentary "The Power Of Nightmares", which is a great watch that I highly recommend, points out that one of the founders of extreme Islam went to school with the neo cons, here in the US, and learned along with them the virtue of protecting conservative values. The American classmates became the neo-cons, and he returned to Egypt to become a fundamentalist (as a 'reaction' to what he saw as Egypt's move towards western liberalism, exemplified by just what you're talking about; the lesser modesty of women etc))

PS: I find myself deeply conflicted and torn between hot women with tattoos, some piercings, and revealing or provocative clothing, and on the other hand modest down-to-earth 'innocent' Scandinavian women on the country side.... I probably need a couch and an accompanying therapist to work that stuff out....

dmp said:

Yup, a lot of mud slinging going on currently.

My point was how he will react when someone calls his bluff on a 35% tariff? We will see if he changes his tone next week (highly unlikely I think).

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the same way he always reacts when an opening negotiation is declined.

Hopefully when he becomes the actual president he will be too busy to micromanage every employer, he better be too busy. But for now it makes a nice PR visual and apparently amuses him.

If we talk specifically about what is regulated, for instance: pollution, treatment of employees, capital requirements for banks, use (misuse) of public resources, etc... these regulations DO restrict business, since in a strict profit oriented free market, the most profitable businesses will pollute the most, oppress workers the most, leverage the government "put" the most, use public resources the most, etc.
NOT polluting is a luxury, which is why developing nations tend to do worse.

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I believe we've had this argument before... mercury and toxic heavy metals bad, CO2 and cow farts not so much. It is excessive regulation I object to, but of course this definition of what is excessive is viewed differently by both (all three) sides.

For instance, if two companies are making widgets and one company does it cheaper by using an extremely dangerous chemical that pollutes a nearby river,  other companies won't be able to match the prices of the polluting company. In order to compete, all companies making widgets need to be competitive (by polluting) to stay in business.

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Are you describing China? But even they are very slowly cleaning up their act. Some true horror stories from over there and not that long ago.  Chine cornered the rare earth metals industry because the refining was such a dirty process that the western companies were not competitive. After China cornered it and raised prices, western competition returned.

A funny headline in the Onion during Trump appointments: "EPA to drop 'E' and 'P' from name"

Trump will have executive action to cut a lot of regulation. But he will need to work with Congress to do a lot of the things that are contributing to business optimism, like reduced corporate taxes. I expect he will butt heads with Congress, even members of his same party.
Possibly - debt is going to get really interesting as interest rates rise.

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Yes, servicing our $19T of sovereign debt will increase along with interest rates, but increases starting from such a low rate will look almost exponential (increase from 1% to 2% is doubling the interest cost)..  Back in May last year Trump made some bombastic remarks on the campaign trail about renegotiating our sovereign debt, I wrote that off as his typical shock and awe comments to stir the pot. I look forward to a more adult discussion from his cabinet and congress in the context of tax policy reform discussions.  The outgoing president doubled our sovereign debt (creating more debt than all the presidents before him). We need to get off that trajectory fast. Growing the GDP will help in that regard, but that is easier said than done, while IMO more possible under Trump than Hillary.  I am still waiting for concrete proposals but last time I looked, Trump is still not president yet.

If Barbara Streisand doesn't sing at his inauguration is he still president?  8)  :

JR

Matador said:

Well, the repeal effort is happening predictably.

I wish the Republican legislative branch would just come out and admit "We don't believe the government should be involved with health care (unless you are a woman, of course)." Then the lack of a viable alternative  after 7 years of pleas from Congress makes sense, as they want the tax cuts to the 0.1% to go through as quickly as possible (which they can do through reconciliation). Whether millions lose their insurance is besides the point.

I don't know why, in this new era of the Republican "mandate", they aren't clear with their intentions, as it would absolve everyone from playing these games of smoke and mirrors.

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I would say that the masses, even Trump supporters, actually appreciate health care and being taken care of, but they're so deeply indoctrinated by American culture that they think they have a shot at the "dream", which won't happen. But since that's their belief, you can't really undo that and still have the wide population be semi-servile workers creating wealth for the top (trickle-up economics, or, as I like to call it, wealth redistribution).

In other words, it's just a need to keep the status quo. The sadist in me wants Trump supporters to lose their health care and suffer the consequences, because they were dumb enough to vote for that nonsense (not all, there are exceptions), and the humanist in me wants everyone to be well (since we're all special snowflakes).

PS: I find myself deeply conflicted and torn between hot women with tattoos, some piercings, and revealing or provocative clothing, and on the other hand modest down-to-earth 'innocent' Scandinavian women on the country side.... I probably need a couch and an accompanying therapist to work that stuff out....

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This is probably a generational thing.  I don't have any issues with women wearing next to nothing as long as it's feminine.  I don't think they have to be particularly modest either, I hate what women have to put up with in Muslim countries and India for that matter.

When I see tattoos and piercings, I get a warning bell saying this person has self-esteem issues................. :-\

There is something about the direction that modern life has taken since the war that has had a very detrimental effect on the self-esteem of girls.  Anorexia and Bulimia were unheard of in the 50's and 60's, as were piercings and tattoos, I can only put it down to TV advertising, magazine articles and latterly FB and smart phones.

DaveP

mattiasNYC said:

and the humanist in me wants everyone to be well (since we're all special snowflakes).

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Why do you hate freedom?

[Quote author=John Roberts]

the same way he always reacts when an opening negotiation is declined
[/Quote]

You know, I never thought of it that way.

First, you grab them by the pussy.  If you don't get kicked in the crotch and arrested, then you negotiate to grabbing breasts, but OVER the shirt.  If you aren't slapped, then you offer dinner and a preview of a prenuptial agreement.

It's actually the way pretty much all consenting relationships start nowadays, amirite?  8)

DaveP said:

This is probably a generational thing.  I don't have any issues with women wearing next to nothing as long as it's feminine.  I don't think they have to be particularly modest either, I hate what women have to put up with in Muslim countries and India for that matter.

When I see tattoos and piercings, I get a warning bell saying this person has self-esteem issues................. :-\

There is something about the direction that modern life has taken since the war that has had a very detrimental effect on the self-esteem of girls.  Anorexia and Bulimia were unheard of in the 50's and 60's, as were piercings and tattoos, I can only put it down to TV advertising, magazine articles and latterly FB and smart phones.

DaveP

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I don't personally like tatoos and piercings, but it is really just fashion trends, not psychological illnesses. Both have been around for millenia, and popularity of all kinds of fashion waxes and wanes. If you look beyond the west an astounding variety of body modifications can be found within the broad tapestry of cultures that makes up the fabric of humanity.

Personally I wish current pop music was different, and I think late 70s clothing was really stupid. But nobody cares. Things will change, they always do.

living sounds said:

DaveP said:

This is probably a generational thing.  I don't have any issues with women wearing next to nothing as long as it's feminine.  I don't think they have to be particularly modest either, I hate what women have to put up with in Muslim countries and India for that matter.

When I see tattoos and piercings, I get a warning bell saying this person has self-esteem issues................. :-\

There is something about the direction that modern life has taken since the war that has had a very detrimental effect on the self-esteem of girls.  Anorexia and Bulimia were unheard of in the 50's and 60's, as were piercings and tattoos, I can only put it down to TV advertising, magazine articles and latterly FB and smart phones.

DaveP

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I don't personally like tatoos and piercings, but it is really just fashion trends, not psychological illnesses. Both have been around for millenia, and popularity of all kinds of fashion waxes and wanes. If you look beyond the west an astounding variety of body modifications can be found within the broad tapestry of cultures that makes up the fabric of humanity.

Personally I wish current pop music was different, and I think late 70s clothing was really stupid. But nobody cares. Things will change, they always do.

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Tattoos and piercings are a problem beyond fashion IMO. Now one might say pierced ears have been around forever, and that's true, but that's an example of a tasteful decoration carefully proven over time, as in the crown of a princess. The stuff today is mostly impulsive and ugly, and seems to imitate the look of criminals and low-intelligence barbaric types. And I think that trend is going on across the board far beyond piercings and tattoos. People think we can take up habits of third-world civilizations, but we won't become one.

I also think revealing clothing is another symptom of more barbaric/primitive culture. Keeping everybody focused on sex too much goes against evolution in the sense of becoming more cilivized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAON-MwUPY
The Passenger

DaveP said:

This is probably a generational thing.  I don't have any issues with women wearing next to nothing as long as it's feminine.  I don't think they have to be particularly modest either, I hate what women have to put up with in Muslim countries and India for that matter.

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It probably is partially generational, I agree with that. I also agree that being forced to wear something specific is awful. I suppose we could include orthodox Jews here as well, but perhaps that isn't kosher.

DaveP said:

When I see tattoos and piercings, I get a warning bell saying this person has self-esteem issues................. :-\

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I would caution you to read that much into it. It seems like it could be a stretch in a lot of cases, not to mention all the perfectly perfect people that still have the very same issues. Book and cover and so forth....

DaveP said:

There is something about the direction that modern life has taken since the war that has had a very detrimental effect on the self-esteem of girls.  Anorexia and Bulimia were unheard of in the 50's and 60's, as were piercings and tattoos, I can only put it down to TV advertising, magazine articles and latterly FB and smart phones.

DaveP

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Exactly. Capitalism at its worst. Exploitation is fine as long as you make a profit. From advocating that women should smoke while hiding data showing both that it causes cancer and is addictive to promoting unhealthy body images, advertising in the name of glorious capitalist profit gave us all of that and we had to fight tooth and nail to curb even just the most obvious one, and it took decades to do it....

Matador said:

Why do you hate freedom?

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Scandinavians are all commies, didn't you get the memo?

gltech said:

Tattoos and piercings are a problem beyond fashion IMO. Now one might say pierced ears have been around forever, and that's true, but that's an example of a tasteful decoration carefully proven over time, as in the crown of a princess. The stuff today is mostly impulsive and ugly, and seems to imitate the look of criminals and low-intelligence barbaric types. And I think that trend is going on across the board far beyond piercings and tattoos. People think we can take up habits of third-world civilizations, but we won't become one.

I also think revealing clothing is another symptom of more barbaric/primitive culture. Keeping everybody focused on sex too much goes against evolution in the sense of becoming more cilivized.

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wow..... :-\

Trump's nominations:

Betsy Devos.

If you watched the hearing you should be greatly worried. I reiterate that I see little reason to be impressed by his nominations, with the following exception: If one hates the state and wants to see it run into the ground in areas one doesn't care about, then clearly choosing people with a record of opposing that which they are to govern is the logical choice.

So, Betsy Devos doesn't have the intelligence to understand the difference between "growth" and "proficiency", yet she's qualified to guide the nation's education system?

In addition to that, and continuing in the tradition of blatantly lying to the American people, which Trump voters don't really care about, she claims she had nothing to do with anti-LGBT organizations that promote conversion therapy. The record shows otherwise of course, though some might consider that to be "details".

Lastly, I'll just add that she makes the case for allowing guns in schools in case there's a Grizzly bear around.

The word for 2017 shall surely be "Kakistocracy".

Yes, she's  horrible. However, she does make it nearly impossible for the dems to agree with her, and Corey Booker's likely on the outside of that loop. A small silver lining. Hillary voters didn't care about her lies either, did they? I must have missed that.

Kakistocracy seems to be on the rise. It's like being hit in the head repeatedly.

"January 17, 2017

Washington, DC: Third Way announced today the launch of a $20 million project to take on Trumpism by helping Democrats reconnect with voters who have abandoned the party. Dubbed the “New Blue” campaign, the effort will offer “a new politics for a new era.”

Third Way President Jonathan Cowan said: “This isn’t about 2016 or the Democratic debates of the past. This is about something bigger. The nation wants their leaders to offer a future-oriented, inclusive, and expansive vision, with an emphasis on providing opportunity, not just fairness. People need to feel that the best days for them, their community, and their country are ahead.”

Cowan continued: “We are not interested in a backwards-looking politics of resentment, with a singular focus on who to blame. While some argue that we should meet Donald Trump’s dangerous right-wing populism with a liberal populism of our own, we have seen how populism can become an uncontrollable prairie fire, driven by anti-government anger. We can’t go back to that, and we must also move on from 1990s-era centrism. We need modern ideas that meet today’s problems. And just as Democrats value America’s diversity, we also need a diversity of paths to lead the party back to power.” "

http://www.thirdway.org/newsroom/press-releases/third-way-launches-20-million-new-blue-campaign-to-battle-trumpism-will-provide-democrats-with-a-path-out-of-the-wilderness

DeVos is never going to be acceptable to teachers unions.

Education is important so I favor more vouchers and charter schools.

JR

Trump's nominations:
Betsy Devos.

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Seems clear the plan is to de-fund, watch it fail, privatize.  And then make a bunch of money.

CO2 and cow farts not so much.

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https://xkcd.com/1732/
It gets interesting if you scroll all the way to the bottom.

dmp said:

Seems clear the plan is to de-fund, watch it fail, privatize.  And then make a bunch of money.

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Watching her squirm when asked about just how she'd be able to identify any conflicts of interest with Trump's holdings in private education was sad, only not as sad as seeing voters ignore that while cheering the fact that corrupt Hillary was prevented..... from doing presumably the same thing...

dmp said:

https://xkcd.com/1732/
It gets interesting if you scroll all the way to the bottom.

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It's all a Chinese hoax (except when it isn't), you know, those guys on the other side of the planet with all the cow farts.

JohnRoberts said:

Education is important so I favor more vouchers and charter schools.

JR

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Even though vouchers and charter schools have proved to be detrimental to education in DeVos own state through the programs she initated there? Plus she has been exposed in the hearings as lacking knowledge of basic facts in regards to educational science.

Are you maybe just an ideologue, John?

gltech said:

Tattoos and piercings are a problem beyond fashion IMO. Now one might say pierced ears have been around forever, and that's true, but that's an example of a tasteful decoration carefully proven over time, as in the crown of a princess. The stuff today is mostly impulsive and ugly, and seems to imitate the look of criminals and low-intelligence barbaric types. And I think that trend is going on across the board far beyond piercings and tattoos. People think we can take up habits of third-world civilizations, but we won't become one.

I also think revealing clothing is another symptom of more barbaric/primitive culture. Keeping everybody focused on sex too much goes against evolution in the sense of becoming more cilivized.

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Well, these are just personal value judgements, not objective facts. Completely in line with the purity / morality personality measures I posted in this thread or somewhere else, BTW.  One may like uniformity or adherance to authority, but it is not an a priory virtue.

Statistics overall show a trend towards a more civilized society in the west by most relevant objective measures. In the US, crime rates are back at 1950s/1960s level for example, despite tatoos and piercings.

Civilization is actually under thread by inequality of wealth and income distribution giving rise to the political extremists whose rise we are currently witnessing. And people's instincts for purity, ingroup loyalty etc. when threatened.

Evolution is not a linear path to a "higher" existance. There is no plan and no path of progress. It is simply selection of those organisms best adapted to the respective current selection mechanism.

In many ways civilization puts less selective pressure on the population. A lot of people are alive today that would have died in more primitive environments. In a small tribe self-absorbed exploitative narcissists like Trump would have been quickly been discarded of.  We still need to find answers how to deal with problems like these. Evolution itself won't help much, since it has been bypassed.

This is exactly why I never post in these political threads, because once you do, you have to keep posting on-and-on, and I don't have the time all you continuous political posters do. No more for me (I hope).

living sounds said:

Well, these are just personal value judgements, not objective facts. Completely in line with the purity / morality personality measures I posted in this thread or somewhere else, BTW.  One may like uniformity or adherance to authority, but it is not an a priory virtue.

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Sure, they're opinions, about the future, which there aren't any facts on yet. I knew from Matt's reply that he was probably thinking I thought women should wear burkas. I lean libertarian so I would never support legislation to dictate dress/etc. But a free society always needs to stay sensible enough to recognize the threat of cultural rot, and I think we're mostly blind to that today.

[quote author=living sounds]
Statistics overall show a trend towards a more civilized society in the west by most relevant objective measures. In the US, crime rates are back at 1950s/1960s level for example, despite tatoos and piercings.
[/quote]

IMO, it just hasn't had time to catch up, we're just showing symptoms of the coming disease. Another opinion.

[quote author=living sounds]
Civilization is actually under thread by inequality of wealth and income distribution giving rise to the political extremists whose rise we are currently witnessing. And people's instincts for purity, ingroup loyalty etc. when threatened.
[/quote]

Please explain wealth inequality as in a person who works and saves his money for school (college, tech school, whatever) and works hard to get an accounting degree and goes on to a stable career as an accountant making 6 figures, vs another person that tries to become a professional skateboarder who spends all that same time and effort practicing only to never make it in that field and ending up having to work at the car wash for minimum wage? (excuse the run-on) Are there no outcomes based on personal choices?

[quote author=living sounds]
Evolution is not a linear path to a "higher" existance. There is no plan and no path of progress. It is simply selection of those organisms best adapted to the respective current selection mechanism.
[/quote]

I agree -- see "blindness" above.

[quote author=living sounds]
In many ways civilization puts less selective pressure on the population. A lot of people are alive today that would have died in more primitive environments. In a small tribe self-absorbed exploitative narcissists like Trump would have been quickly been discarded of.  We still need to find answers how to deal with problems like these. Evolution itself won't help much, since it has been bypassed.
[/quote]

I think the sadness is that any Trump/Obama/Bush/Clinton charismatic orator would end up running the tribe. The small ones would probably have a better chance, but you can forget that in today's overpopulated world, which I consider to be the root of all problems by far.