hodad

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2640 on: August 10, 2017, 08:41:44 PM »
Seriously... Bush did it?  If all they needed was a kinder, gentler approach why didn't they stop for pres Obama?  ::)

JR
You didn't read the article I linked to.  The author pointed out that NK may or may not have been cheating on the deal.  The deal actually covered plutonium and not uranium, apparently, which left NK some wiggle room.  And I see why that would be of concern.  However, just because the Bush people said they were cheating, you think I should believe that?  They said the same about Iraq, and that was an absolute freaking lie (well documented) that cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. 

But the truth (that the UN program was working in Iraq) did not suit the  worldview of the Bush people, so lie they did in order to get us into war. 

If things were working in NK (and it did not seem to be doing so badly, even if there indeed were minor transgressions), it did not serve the Bush worldview for that to be true.  And so it wasn't.  And whatever infraction, real or imagined, was used as an excuse to take the "get tough" approach and run as fast as far as possible from those horrible surrender monkeys at the UN. 

And it was at this time that NK got its nukes. 

Now, I'm not going to try to say that it wouldn't have happened otherwise, because I'm not an idiot.  But the Bush approach was at best as ineffective as anything else in NK, and it's fairly likely that it exacerbated the situation. 

It's fair to say that in the case of Iraq, sanctions were very effective and going to war was extremely stupid. 

I think it's also fair to say that the nukes deal in Iran has been working pretty well, and if the new idiot in charge would shut his freaking mouth, things would continue to go well.  And it's a fair bet that taking a "get tough" approach with Iran right now would lead to a much worse outcome than pursuing the current path. 

But I expect none of this means anything to you, because it doesn't agree with your world view, and the real world doesn't matter if it doesn't meet your expectations.  That's just how it is with modern American conservatives.


dmp

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2641 on: August 10, 2017, 10:11:02 PM »
You actually paid the bank that has your mortgage three times what your house cost. Fix up your bathroom all you want, it's yours. But tell me, is there any reason you should be allowed to own two houses and rent the one you don't need to live in to someone who has none?
That is a great question. Property rights are OK but "rent seeking" should be regulated by the Government?
Should all apartments be outlawed? People can only legally live in a residence that they own? What if you want to buy a house but you could only afford it if you let your buddy have a room and chip in?
I  agree on this - homeownership rates are dropping as hedge funds etc buy up houses and turn them into rentals. It's not helping anyone. Somehow this and other negatives of Capitalism need to be curtailed.

The bank mortgage isn't nearly as bad as you assumed - I've paid about half the value currently and if I keep up payments for 10 more years I'll have the whole thing paid off and come in at about the current value. Low interest rates have been good.

tands

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2642 on: August 10, 2017, 10:49:21 PM »
Nothing is going to change until you stop supporting capitalists, dmp. It only gets worse from here, as long as they're in charge. Ever tried to reason with a republican? About anything? Same deal.

https://twitter.com/Bluepurplerain/status/894619220918534145

https://twitter.com/AmelieCherlin/status/862560302075830273


kambo

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2644 on: August 11, 2017, 12:16:52 AM »
there are a lot of cash buyers in CA.
they are  not only paying cash, they r over bidding you with cash!
we decided to wait for the next market crash!

 




DaveP

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2645 on: August 11, 2017, 04:01:58 AM »
Tands,
Your way of looking at the world seems to be entirely governed by the Capitalist versus Marxist argument, but this paints a picture that is altogether too narrow and too bleak.  There is more to life than this.

People who share your views generally do not believe in the spiritual side of life.  The laws of the Christian west were shaped by Biblical principles, the parable of the talents encourages industry for example.  But there is also a warning for the rich, " it is easier for a camel to  pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven."

Organised religion may well be the opium of the masses, but there is more evidence for a spiritual dimension than there is for your conspiracy theories about politicians  and democrats.

There is honour in doing an honest days work and supporting your family, a rich man may have a harder time justifying his actions when he has to account for them.

You remind me of a more intense version of Matt (if that were possible).  A single issue researched in great depth, but it probably makes you unhappy and angrier than you should be, get more enjoyment out of life by starting some of those electronic projects you have hanging around?  The injustices of this world will still be there and getting worse because the over population of the planet has more momentum than any man can handle, except the Pope maybe ::)  But his hands are tied by several centuries of dogma.

DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

micaddict

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2646 on: August 11, 2017, 05:25:53 AM »

the parable of the talents encourages industry for example

DaveP
That is interpretation at best.

And interpretation has left countless victims.

For example.

Quote
But there is also a warning for the rich, " it is easier for a camel to  pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven."
Now there's a much clearer case.

It reads "kingdom of God" rather than "heaven" BTW


« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 06:17:06 AM by micaddict »

iampoor1

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2647 on: August 11, 2017, 06:58:40 AM »
Well its only taken 133 pages for this thread to turn into a "All______ act a certain way". I predict this to go downhill in the next 30 pages.  ;D

Script

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2648 on: August 11, 2017, 07:22:10 AM »
Quote
Capitalist versus Marxist argument
That's a valid stance, and a necessary one, I'd like to add. But maybe expand to 'crony capitalist' versus 'socialist' to see what happens, especially in real-life application.

Apart from that:
- picture uploads are reminiscent of 4chan and the like
- posting long quotes is nothing short of what photocopying used to be (copy everything, process nothing)
- single links : plain noise

Back to
Quote
fire and fury the world has never seen
From a psychological point of view it is hardly ever a good idea to jump blindly onto what is (or is meant as) provocation. And Mr. T., well, he just did what everybody should have expected he'd do, that is being himself.

Then again, I grant him that those words are more than a mindless utterance (actually he's sort of quoting Truman from August 6, 1945). But Kim sure has watched The Apprentice, so might have a headstart in insight into his 'opponent'.

NK missiles can reach US soil? So what. Japan has seen several missiles coming from NK, most falling short, but some flying over and landing somewhere in the Pacific east of Japan. So nothing new here really. NK wants to hit Guam? Yeah, target before that was a US mlitary base in the south of Japan. There's an 'old' Japanese saying: 'NK might be able to shot but they don't know how to target.' That might change soon, yet: You fink da K stoopid? I don't. However, I do see increased danger of a pure accident (on both sides, actually more on the US side) chainreacting into direct conflict.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Mr Trump (and who could possibly be), but I really expect him to strike a deal with Kim now... like selling him US steel or cars or solar panel walls... just anything. Or how about boxes full of iPhones? Could tap them ;)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 08:12:35 AM by Script »

DaveP

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2649 on: August 11, 2017, 08:02:31 AM »
Quote
That is interpretation at best.
I think we can both agree it doesn't encourage sloth and I meant work ethic rather than industrialisation.

I'm interested in what you think it means, I'm more interested in member's thoughts than the cut and paste of others.

Quote
That's a valid stance, and a necessary one, I'd like to add
Yes it is, but it's not all there is.

DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.


micaddict

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2650 on: August 11, 2017, 08:54:24 AM »
I think we can both agree it doesn't encourage sloth and I meant work ethic rather than industrialisation.

I'm interested in what you think it means, I'm more interested in member's thoughts than the cut and paste of others.
DaveP
I appreciate your interest and I know where it comes from. But I hesitate for two reasons. Firstly, IMO religious talk is even more flammable on an internet forum like this than political talk. Secondly, the Man we like to talk about is about as far from the guy in the topic title as you can imagine.

But yes, I know, there's good news to be shared. And when and where is the proper time and place?
Anyway, I'll give you a short answer.

The continuously returning theme in the gospels is the kingdom of God. How to get there, be a part of it and/or how to be  good followers of the prime example. All the teaching, parables, warnings, promises etc. hover around this theme. And the message is not about worldly affairs. It's deliberately and totally the opposite.  Famous quotes are:"My kingdom is not of this world" and:""Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth" and:"If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
If you look at the the parable of the talents in this light then industry will probably not cross your mind.

Captains of industry who happen to go to church will likely have a different interpretation.
And they may even have a clever twist regarding the camel and the needle.

That's how far I will go, Dave.

Carry on.



Henk

« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:27:25 AM by micaddict »

JohnRoberts

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2651 on: August 11, 2017, 11:00:16 AM »
That's a valid stance, and a necessary one, I'd like to add. But maybe expand to 'crony capitalist' versus 'socialist' to see what happens, especially in real-life application.
I believe we all dislike corruption and fraud no matter the ideal theoretical system it occurs in.
Quote
Apart from that:
- picture uploads are reminiscent of 4chan and the like
- posting long quotes is nothing short of what photocopying used to be (copy everything, process nothing)
- single links : plain noise
+1
Quote
Back toFrom a psychological point of view it is hardly ever a good idea to jump blindly onto what is (or is meant as) provocation. And Mr. T., well, he just did what everybody should have expected he'd do, that is being himself.
like trying to out-crazy the crazy guy... confuses him.   There is a negotiation technique called "mirroring" where you mimic the person you are negotiating with to make them more comfortable and receptive. This is mirroring carried to a bizarre extreme. ::)
Quote
Then again, I grant him that those words are more than a mindless utterance (actually he's sort of quoting Truman from August 6, 1945). But Kim sure has watched The Apprentice, so might have a headstart in insight into his 'opponent'.
yup more going on behind the scenes than the hysterical media grasps.
Quote
NK missiles can reach US soil? So what. Japan has seen several missiles coming from NK, most falling short, but some flying over and landing somewhere in the Pacific east of Japan. So nothing new here really. NK wants to hit Guam? Yeah, target before that was a US mlitary base in the south of Japan. There's an 'old' Japanese saying: 'NK might be able to shot but they don't know how to target.' That might change soon, yet: You fink da K stoopid? I don't. However, I do see increased danger of a pure accident (on both sides, actually more on the US side) chainreacting into direct conflict.
Or this is all very calculated to come just short of actually being an act of war.  While early reports may have been inaccurate it seems like the initial threat was to hit a military base on Guam, and then that got walked back to firing into the sea just short of Guam in international waters. This could be interpreted as NK blinking, or just more thoughtless bluster.
Quote
Personally, I'm not a fan of Mr Trump (and who could possibly be), but I really expect him to strike a deal with Kim now... like selling him US steel or cars or solar panel walls... just anything. Or how about boxes full of iPhones? Could tap them ;)
The interesting thing for me is seeing how china and russia reacts (the other two world powers).  A major Chinese newspaper reports that China will defend NK if attacked, but NK better not attack first (no doubt intended to reduce un's fear level and aggression). Russia reports they are working with China to keep this contained. It is hard to imagine any scenario when NK benefits from attacking anybody, while their internal propaganda has instructed their people that they are the ones under attack.  So they could interpret defensive acts as offensive.

I expect this is all a negotiation, but I am an optimist.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

tands

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2652 on: August 11, 2017, 11:54:36 AM »

Apart from that:
- picture uploads are reminiscent of 4chan and the like
- posting long quotes is nothing short of what photocopying used to be (copy everything, process nothing)
- single links : plain noise

You're entirely welcome to your opinion.
-People are amusing and creative, and they are not fooled
-I am not your processor
-I always liked the 'Harper's Index' and 'Findings' sections in Harper's Magazine. I am presenting you with baubles you may or may not appreciate, but I do.

https://harpers.org/archive/2015/06/254668/

https://harpers.org/archive/2017/02/findings-156/

Go ahead and amuse me.

tands

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2653 on: August 11, 2017, 12:08:13 PM »
Tands,
Your way of looking at the world seems to be entirely governed by the Capitalist versus Marxist argument, but this paints a picture that is altogether too narrow and too bleak.  There is more to life than this.

I'm not governed by it, but hey, it's hard to argue with this.

Quote
In short, wherever domination exists—of bosses over workers, of men over women and gender nonconformists, of states over subjects, of whites over people of color, of human society over the rest of the web of life—we seek to replace it with equality, cooperation, love, and mutual respect. Ours is a vision of total liberation, not just in some far-flung revolutionary future but here and now.

http://www.dsa-lsc.org/

Script

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2654 on: August 11, 2017, 12:14:40 PM »
Quote
A major Chinese newspaper reports that China will defend NK if attacked, but NK better not attack first (no doubt intended to reduce un's fear level and aggression).
Sure they would if NK gets attacked -- it's their 'buffer'.
Sure they won't if NK attacked -- it'd fall back on them.
Well, so not only to reduce US fear, but plain truth maybe?

Out-crazy the crazy guy? Grotesque as befits those two guys.

Not sure about the 'mirroring' part. It works marvels in 'friendly' encounters. In 'tense' situations it'd be interpreted as just another provocation. That'd been the idea?

Quote
It is hard to imagine any scenario when NK benefits from attacking anybody
No, the benefit clearly is in announcing it. Do it and NK ceases to exist.

Quote
So they [i.e., NK] could interpret defensive acts as offensive.
Not just could. They do interpret annual US military manoevers in South Korea, for example, as threatening. Putting all ideology and brainwashing aside, as well as considering that they are a buffer state for China, I think they can't really be blamed... Well, at least not for that feeling of being threatened, cos that's real for sure. -- Please note, I'm not defending that 'haircut' in the least.

tands

Re: Donald trump. what is your take on him?
« Reply #2655 on: August 11, 2017, 12:27:39 PM »
Let's remember when we talk about how the north koreans interpret something that 99.999999% of them have no idea what's happening.