Donald trump. what is your take on him?

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DaveP said:
I am totally disgusted that there are Americans alive today, who feel it is justified to give the Nazi salute.  Their grandfathers who died on Omaha beach , Normandy and Europe would have shot them out of hand as traitors.
Our fathers and grandfathers fought to protect their right to show their ass (like that)......  while I agree it is deplorable and embarrassing (it's protected speech). 

I'm  sure the euro press and public is eating that stuff up because it makes them feel better about themselves (sorry my speculation).
They have betrayed the entire generation who fought WW2 for their freedom,  as well as the 450,900 Brits who died doing the same.  They all need history lessons big time.

DaveP
I have been trying to ignore the recent flare up in the news, no doubt aggravated by attention from the media (nothing like lights and cameras to attract a crowd, and create a news story, on a slow news day.) There seems to be a new front in the identity politics culture wars to take a magic slate approach to disappear historical cultural icons.  I couldn't give a rat's a__ about the stars and bars (confederate flag), but see at least one neighbor flying one. He probably lives up to at least part of the stereotype assigned to all of them (red neck, white, and prejudiced, while that sounds a little redundant).

I see little sense in tearing down statues of confederate generals. Anyone who has bothered to learn about the civil war realizes is was far more complicated than just about race relations (more about economic systems and states rights). By modern cultural mores slavery is unacceptable, but hundreds of years ago it was widely tolerated and accepted as normal.  I am not about to take George Washington off the dollar bill because he owned slaves hundreds of years ago.  If people want to be outraged about slavery let's fight the slavery still going on today around the world (mostly as human trafficking but simple slavery is practiced in ISIS controlled regions).  If angry about Nazism let's push back against anti semitism still widely practiced in the west, sometimes subtle sometimes not so much.

There are soldiers still fighting and dying today around the world trying to win somebody else's liberty, while modern culture makes it uncool to applaud and support their efforts.

JR
 
I am totally disgusted that there are Americans alive today, who feel it is justified to give the Nazi salute. [...] They all need history lessons big time
'Disgusted' might not be the right word here. Rather something more like ignorance infused disgrace? Personally, I'd change 'Americans' to 'people', but that's just my opinion.

Does it make Europeans feel good to see that happen in the US? I wouldn't thinks so. On the contrary.
 
I'm  sure the euro press and public is eating that stuff up because it makes them feel better about themselves (sorry my speculation)
I chose my words carefully.
There are Neo Nazis in Germany and Ukraine I believe, but I was outraged because these Americans are part of the country that fought against them,  I would feel exactly the same about English, French or Polish Nazis.
If angry about Nazism let's push back against anti semitism still widely practiced in the west, sometimes subtle sometimes not so much.
+1 on that, the fact that they have it in for the Jews only makes their views worse.

I don't give a toss whether it's cool or not to support the military nowadays, people need a reality check, they'll be glad of them if NK fires at the US.

DaveP
 
And just for the record.....
Those guys that gave the Nazi salute ARE fascists,  some of us are just conservatives.

DaveP
 
JohnRoberts wrote:
I'm  sure the euro press and public is eating that stuff up because it makes them feel better about themselves (sorry my speculation). I see nazi flags, I see an act of terror from that camp and I see a president downplaying it .

But I guess it was fake news again.
That's all we get over here.

No, I'm not feeling better.
As a matter of fact I think I'm going to throw up.
 
Nazis and white-power lunatics march in defense of a statue of a person fighting to keep slavery in America.

The re-action to that is a counter-protest. Learn how discern between cause and effect.

One crazy bastard drives a car into a group of people, killing one of the protesters.

What type of response can be expected here?


JohnRoberts said:
Our fathers and grandfathers fought to protect their right to show their ass (like that)......  while I agree it is deplorable and embarrassing (it's protected speech). 

I'm  sure the euro press and public is eating that stuff up because it makes them feel better about themselves (sorry my speculation). I have been trying to ignore the recent flare up in the news, no doubt aggravated by attention from the media (nothing like lights and cameras to attract a crowd, and create a news story, on a slow news day.) There seems to be a new front in the identity politics culture wars to take a magic slate approach to disappear historical cultural icons.  I couldn't give a rat's a__ about the stars and bars (confederate flag), but see at least one neighbor flying one. He probably lives up to at least part of the stereotype assigned to all of them (red neck, white, and prejudiced, while that sounds a little redundant).

I see little sense in tearing down statues of confederate generals. Anyone who has bothered to learn about the civil war realizes is was far more complicated than just about race relations (more about economic systems and states rights). By modern cultural mores slavery is unacceptable, but hundreds of years ago it was widely tolerated and accepted as normal.  I am not about to take George Washington off the dollar bill because he owned slaves hundreds of years ago.  If people want to be outraged about slavery let's fight the slavery still going on today around the world (mostly as human trafficking but simple slavery is practiced in ISIS controlled regions).  If angry about Nazism let's push back against anti semitism still widely practiced in the west, sometimes subtle sometimes not so much.

There are soldiers still fighting and dying today around the world trying to win somebody else's liberty, while modern culture makes it uncool to applaud and support their efforts.

JR

- Neo nazis have the right to march and have their opinions, their speech is protected

- European press is presumed to feast on this to claim superiority over the US (which, I presume, really means Europe is inferior)

- The US media is of complicit in this, because when people see cameras they congregate, with violence as a result apparently

- We had our war on drugs, on terror, and more importantly Christmas, and now finally a “culture war”. The liberals are hell bent on taking away the cultural icons of the past. That they were racist people fighting for slavery is of no concern.

- Sure slavery was bad, but things were different back then. Our moral compass was different. Can we really blame them for the racism and slavery? I mean, would we have been any different? (I’m half black - you’re a bright cookie; figure it out)

- Sure, slavery was bad, but if you really want outrage, forget about the past and focus not on America. Look over there! Somewhere else on the planet there's still slavery!

- Sure, Nazis are bad, especially Illinois Nazis. But let’s not fret over domestic white power racists and them walking around at night with torches and wanting a society where blacks and whites are segregated, let’s push back against anti semitism specifically instead. I mean, after all, if all white-power racists are by definition both anti-black and anti-semites, surely it must make sense to focus on the latter, no? Why kill two birds with one stone?

- And finally, let’s talk about supporting our troops. After all, that's always a good argument regardless of the topic. I’m surprised we didn’t see a mention of 9/11 above, because it seems it would have fit very well.



—————————

Absentees:

- Clear condemnation without caveats of this racist white power movement
- Clear condemnation without caveats of the act of terrorism

If I wasn’t so tired and overworked I would have thought you were incapable of empathy John. I’ll just settle for the above making pretty clear just how you can support racial profiling in New York by the NYPD when doing unconstitutional pat downs on brown people.

Yeah, I know, you’re now going to get upset and tell us all how this isn’t about you and I should’t make it personal. But guess what; for people of color people like you are part of the problem. You want to protect racist symbols just because it makes you feel fuzzy about your previously divide country. Like there’s some charming “life was simpler back when” reality. And of course that was true, just not for the colored folks who have to see those monuments being worshipped by current day racists, partially because people like you want to leave them there. And you want to keep NY secure by endorsing racially profiled stop-and-frisk. Again, quite the coincidence: Some groups are negatively affected by this and others aren't. Which group are you in?

When Americans choose to talk about everything around something like this - something which Dave correctly pointed out was fucking fought over not just in the US civil war and subsequently in the courts, but also in a world war that threatened to destroy us all - rather than at the very least condemn it, then something is utterly wrong.

I would encourage deep introspection, but I know that's a futile request.

————————————

Kudos to DaveP for his remarks.
 
Looks like only a matter of time til person #2 is in custody. That's a metal sleeve around that club he's got, a conduit (?) connector.

https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/896830743346896898

Heroic dude.

https://twitter.com/ChuckModi1/status/896409728959606789

 
Welcome back, but not glad it is another verbal wrestling match with me. I haven't read my newspaper yet today and have been trying to ignore the breathless news reports. They try to fill hours of broadcast showing how little they actually know. Even the business news channel is full of political drama this morning. 
Nazis and white-power lunatics march in defense of a statue of a person fighting to keep slavery in America.

Huh? I have been trying to ignore this story. Demonstrations were attempted around the country but apparently a fairly small turnout. The adversarial political climate is trying to pin this tail on POTUS, and the media is trying to build a political story there.

The primary slavery in America today is human trafficking, Conventional slavery is still going on around the world as I have noted in the past.  (I am opposed to all slavery. Didn't think I had to say it. )

I can't change past history, we can only address now and the future. Stirring up hatred is not the solution. 
The re-action to that is a counter-protest. Learn how discern between cause and effect.
This is an ink blot test, interpreted differently through different political agendas. I wouldn't know these small interest groups existed if it wasn't for all the free publicity and promotion they get from the media stirring the pot.
One crazy bastard drives a car into a group of people, killing one of the protesters.
I have been trying to ignore this story, at least for the first few days until more calm coverage emerges. I believe two police helicopter pilots also died (RIP).
What type of response can be expected here?
hyperbole from a fever pitch political class.
- Neo nazis have the right to march and have their opinions, their speech is protected
within limits. They need to secure parade permits to march/assemble in public and must behave legally and not incite violence. 
- European press is presumed to feast on this to claim superiority over the US (which, I presume, really means Europe is inferior)
already putting words into my mouth.. STOP that.
- The US media is of complicit in this, because when people see cameras they congregate, with violence as a result apparently
yes...  while media does not cause the violence, bringing groups with such opposite views into close proximity routinely results in violence. That is why police generally maneuver such groups to be a safe distance apart. 
- We had our war on drugs, on terror, and more importantly Christmas, and now finally a “culture war”. The liberals are hell bent on taking away the cultural icons of the past. That they were racist people fighting for slavery is of no concern.
I couldn't give a sh__ about civil war cultural icons, but after living down here 30 years I have a sense for how strongly some people feel about their heritage (for better and worse, its human nature).
- Sure slavery was bad, but things were different back then. Our moral compass was different. Can we really blame them for the racism and slavery? I mean, would we have been any different? (I’m half black - you’re a bright cookie; figure it out)
I don't know, that is impossible to know. I suspect just like now we would both be products of our personal experiences.
- Sure, slavery was bad, but if you really want outrage, forget about the past and focus not on America. Look over there! Somewhere else on the planet there's still slavery!
no... lets focus on things we can actually change for the better. Not just fight old fights. Iconic symbols are not the problem, it is the culture and how we view these iconic symbols.  The swastika was an ancient religious symbol before the nazis co-opted it. The nazi were defeated not because of who they were, but because of what they did.
- Sure, Nazis are bad, especially Illinois Nazis. But let’s not fret over domestic white power racists and them walking around at night with torches and wanting a society where blacks and whites are segregated, let’s push back against anti semitism specifically instead. I mean, after all, if all white-power racists are by definition both anti-black and anti-semites, surely it must make sense to focus on the latter, no? Why kill two birds with one stone?
I see more self imposed segregation recently promoted by black interest groups (like on some college campuses telling white professors to stay home).  From my perspective the racial tension in the US has just gotten worse in the last decade and in my judgement a large part of this is from political opportunism trying to gain some advantage from racial tension.
- And finally, let’s talk about supporting our troops. After all, that's always a good argument regardless of the topic. I’m surprised we didn’t see a mention of 9/11 above, because it seems it would have fit very well.
sorry to disappoint you.  I was trying to add a little perspective to a modern culture that sorely lacks any.
—————————

Absentees:

- Clear condemnation without caveats of this racist white power movement
I'll condemn it but first lets see it... a "movement"? Seem more like a small fringe element like we have always had from both the far right and far left.
- Clear condemnation without caveats of the act of terrorism
not sure I understand... we have real terrorism in the world today.. ISIS tried to take down an airliner by mailing bomb making materials from Turkey to Australia... That should be more concerning.
If I wasn’t so tired and overworked I would have thought you were incapable of empathy John. I’ll just settle for the above making pretty clear just how you can support racial profiling in New York by the NYPD when doing unconstitutional pat downs on brown people.
Perhaps my empathy takes a different form. I am in favor of saving lives, and getting illegal handguns off the street saves lives.  I do not support Chicago's apparent indifference to gun violence as long as it stays in the poor neighborhoods. I'll leave it to you to predict what race gets hurt the most by that indifference.
Yeah, I know, you’re now going to get upset and tell us all how this isn’t about you and I should’t make it personal. But guess what; for people of color people like you are part of the problem.
I am not your problem and sorry that you think I am.  I have long ago stopped trying to change your mind about me.
You want to protect racist symbols just because it makes you feel fuzzy about your previously divide country.
bad guess, or another veiled insult... please STOP
Like there’s some charming “life was simpler back when” reality. And of course that was true, just not for the colored folks who have to see those monuments being worshipped by current day racists, partially because people like you want to leave them there. And you want to keep NY secure by endorsing racially profiled stop-and-frisk. Again, quite the coincidence: Some groups are negatively affected by this and others aren't. Which group are you in?
and which group benefits most from the reduced street violence?
When Americans choose to talk about everything around something like this - something which Dave correctly pointed out was f**king fought over not just in the US civil war and subsequently in the courts, but also in a world war that threatened to destroy us all - rather than at the very least condemn it, then something is utterly wrong.

I would encourage deep introspection, but I know that's a futile request.

————————————

Kudos to DaveP for his remarks.
Welcome back, I hope you got enough venom out of your system with this first return strike. No offense but I didn't miss these verbal attacks.

JR

PS: Well the good news is that this momentarily took Russia, and NK out of the headlines, but probably not for long. 
 
scott2000 said:
Oh Boy....Ugh....I really shouldn't start that way...
Oh God.....shoot....did it again...

Um, I'll share my thoughts while it's still allowed even though I know it may not be something others agree with. It's my opinion and, I promise I won't hurt anyone if they don't agree. I think at least that part is Law right now here where I live.

I think what John was saying was that EVERYONE, like it or not, has the right to free speech. He wasn't singling out Nazis any more than Dave was singling out America for our Nazi problems . Neither were meaning what they said to be taken out of the context of everything that was supposed to be implied.

I'm sure John would agree that, if given the chance to VOTE on law to make Nazi assemblies illegal, he would check the box that says yes. As would most of us, including myself. It is not the law right now though and it's a messed up thing. At least hurting people is illegal and, I don't see any gray areas there?
Maybe we will soon see a shift and the government will make an effort to shut down this type of white power belief system. Who knows if it would even be successful. They can't control anything people make up their minds to do it seems, whether it be drugs, gangs,who they worship, who they want to hurt,etc....but at least it would be a symbolic move in the right direction that the majority would agree on.
Everyone knows the media would rather cover car wrecks than the person giving the homeless some money. Both happen every day and I don't see cameras staked out around the homeless to see these acts of kindness. I know that's a goofy analogy but, the point is the same. I think fear attracts and that's what sells unfortunately..Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe they can pass a law making this conduct illegal...
I don't think John was trying to shift the focus to other parts of the world as to undermine our issues. I gathered it was to point out that everyone has issues. He should have put more context in as to not leave us to connect the dots...or wires ... Similar to Dave saying that America has a Nazi problem he was disgusted with...when he meant he's disgusted with the Nazis problems everywhere but left that for us to figure out but, because ours is public at this time, it's understandable.
I'm having a hard time trying to condense what John said from these opinions of what he meant so, forgive me if it's not as clear as it can be. I'm just reading and trying to share my opinion.
Regarding the unconstitutional pat downs, it seems that there was no problem supporting the constitution then but, we should abandon it now with the right to free speech or assemblies. I'm confused as to what the point of that is. Until things are made law, we should try to be people who follow it? Once again, I think John would support and vote for what all of of agree is the best thing. I just think it's trickier than just randomly passing law without thinking of how any law may be interpreted in the future.

Maybe John was trying to take a more passive approach by saying he's learned to live with the history, as sad as it is, and the shortcomings of our system, like dumba%# rednecks who can think and say whatever they want. I get tired too and am glad there are others doing the heavy lifting in regards to making real change in this place. Checking a box is a lot easier for me than making that option available.
I'm a Native Floridian. My Great Great Great Grandfather was a chief here where I live. My mom's maiden name was Powell. So, I guess I should be  pissed off about the way everything is here but, I'm under the impression that, if I'm not out trying to do something to change the way the world is, I am better off trying to be aware that there are things wrong with it and be in the mind set that I will happily join others to vote on any changes to right those.
Ok I'm going all over the place now. I just think putting words in and taking them out of people's mouths because they haven't taken more time out of their day to make sure there is no room for thinking the worst instead of the best, is just wrong.

I read what John wrote in a different place, thinking of it as he was a caring person and it translated different to me I suppose. I will admit that he left the door open for negative interpretations but,  I choose to interpret them in a more positive light and would be happy to have him as a neighbor, an you Mat, and Dave...etc....because I think we all agree on the same things when it comes down to it......I know, BORING........


This is pretty scary, I quit using Facebook because of all the negativity and constant misinterpretations that, it just took up too much of my time. I just felt like sharing my opinion on this. I think John deserves a lot more credit than was given here.  Credit being the words that he didn't fill in for you but you could've given him. I could be wrong but, without knowing for sure, I choose to believe the positive....That's where all the action is..... But the negative is always there......Sucks...

Can't we all just get along and work on solutions? Seems like we can all come up with some legislation that'll work if we wanted to. I don't think we can realistically make change any other way and pointing fingers or whatever this is, isn't really changing the problems we have. But, I'm pretty lazy and I have to go to work and pay my taxes for this messed up place I live in... I'd be happy to check a box though....I know, sad.... Sorry....I still Love everybody....We'll as long as you don't want to kill me....Then we'd have a problem....Oh wait....we do have a problem...... So, where's the solution?

How about a topic of solutions.
Any legal guys on here familiar with the legislation process we have here?

Here's a to do list: Feel free to add to it....

1) Pass legislation making white power assemblies illegal.

I believe All acts of violence and hatred,bigotry,slavery,abuse...etc are wrong in any shape,color,form,belief,,etc...everywhere on planet Earth.  Feel free to copy and paste this at the end of every comment if you like. Of course, unless you don't believe this.

I don't have time to read your entire post unfortunately, so if this is not an explanation or if it doesn't any new valuable information about what I'm talking, my apologies. Perhaps I'll come back at some later time and read it more carefully....

So, with that caveat out of the way I'll keep it extremely simple:

There's something to be said for the president not taking very easy opportunities to disavow these specific groups, and calling the act what it was. It's Monday now, and we still haven't heard a clear statement of that sort.

Now, I actually very much support the right to free speech for all groups and ideologies, so my objection isn't that John would issue a statement that in its essence includes all groups. That isn't my objection at all. My objection is that this is an opportunity for everyone to disavow those groups and ideologies, and when one chooses not to do so - which is fine btw, we're all busy - the problem arises when one instead chooses to come up with about a million other things to say in response to it.

John's response looked to me as if it mirrored Trump's response in essence. It's essentially saying, "Oh well, yeah, but all sides though... all sides". What do you suppose the people make out of such a response? David Duke feels he and his cohorts are taking America back in the sense Trump used the word (their perception) and at least one white power outlet said Trump's verbal response was tacit support.

This is exactly what I and others have warned about since before the election. It isn't just about not literally supporting certain groups, it's about publicly clearly and repeatedly disavowing them to send a message to the public. This is POTUS we're talking about here. Is he elected to lead the country or not? If so, then are his words of zero consequence? Clearly the sitting president's words and actions were of YUGE consequence when Obama was there, so one would think it still applies. And of course it does.

In the case of John the problem is doing the same; trying to avoid the issue or move focus away from it. Since he voted for Trump his response while disappointing shouldn't have been shockingly surprising.

So then, just who bears responsibility for these sentiments now perpetuating in society, with the aforementioned groups feeling somewhat emboldened by a president who doesn't clearly disavow them, and with conservatives like John (and I've seen many more) that feel it's more important to argue that slave-owning "idols" remain erect than to just clearly talk about the fundamental problem facing American society today?

John Oliver is clearly representing a show that has taken an anti-Trump stance, but it doesn't make what he says in this video wrong, nor does it negate the importance of watching what people (Trump/Duke) actually say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXszx68uhsY
 

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