DIY fader automation interest ?

signalflow said:

I think keeping the features on board would be nice but if you don't need them don't populate them. I agree with you, the way my saber is set up I wouldn't have enough room for the buttons but could come in handy for others as long as it still functions without them.

-Casey

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You don't "need" the remote board with 6button/led it can be done a DAW side (which is little less ergonomic...) but you still need to populate all SRIO at I/O board, 2 of 16 digital I/O (per fader) is used for touch detection and motor bypass. 56 D I/O have then to be clamped to 0V  ;D

for Eric and cost.
here is my approximation
BOM 400 (including MBHP pcb)
fader between 250 and 800 depending of manufacturer/qualities/quantities
PSU, you can't avoid high qualities, with very low ripple and sense hooked close to servo rail, only 5mV ripple or voltage drop (due to LED) will introduce 1 step jitter / 0.1mm move at the fader.
I use vero PK series, 600/pces you can fin second hand for half.
A rack, 3u vero (or any eurorack) is nice to fit the PSU and computer, front and rear panel 100 at best
Frontpanel for fader, I can't say, it's realy up to each situation/integration. My use case is around 900, with 200x40 FP, digital print and standoff (no visible screw except fader) + special bracket to retrofit my studer 289 fader cassette
All extra, wire, bracket/spacer, everything you don't think about but you will need it... let say 50
Then 17 pcb, I know what I pay for, I have no idea what will be a fair price to sell.
Finaly shipping for all this.

faderI have are
MF914, 10K, 10V (audio log)
MF914 ,A10K, 10V(math log),
B10K is linear servo only.

let me know what your US distributor say, but keep in mind that if the groupbuy is done in US, european buyer will pay aprox 25% in tax when importing back in EU

Best
Zam

john12ax7 said:

I've just been disappointed in control surfaces, so thinking about rolling my own. Mostly I want mixer faders that line up with my 500 series gear, I've fine with either audio or non audio passing through.

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Motor PCB is 34mm, so it will fit the 1.5 inches 500 series, but you need 4U frontpanel,
most of motor fader are about 150mm long.

I/O board is 250x85mm, not more than 30cm cable/ribbon from the fader/motor board.
Motor board is 34x120mm as close as possible to the fader,
Remote is 16x150mm as close as possible to the front panel.

Other note, I design nothing at analogue side, if used outside a desk you have to hookup 10dB amp at output also line receiver/driver if you want symmetrical I/O
The only "outside link" add (except fader lug) is an opto-coupler, free for any switching you like (now I put on the rev2 todo list, optional resistor/wiring footprint for the transistor output, I switch a negative rail here, need positive rail switching option too for other usecase)

best
Zam

Zam,

Thanks again, the cost breakdown is great! I see some places I can save for sure.. I have thoughts on using my existing fader panels for example.. I also have CNC so the panels are easy for me . I was thinking about the fader Euro issue as well, I suppose it depends on the number of guys in each location will dictate the best option.. I will still reach out.. I will need 24 so maybe I will say minimum 100 and get a price. I will need the Audio taper but I cant imagine the type would change the cost.

Eric

Maybe we could do different group buys for Europe and US? Depending on what price you get and interest of course. I'm mailing a distributor too.


Zander

Hi

The log curve will not change the price for sure, but will discount apply the same with different ref ?
At my side as I already say I feel audio log better (with -20dB at half), it's equal to the "historical" 104mm but interpolated to 100mm
The math log, is the curve we mainly find with VCA fader (-30 at half run), which is linear dB scale (as math tell), useful to keep constant gain between non equal absolute fader value when grouping, as travel VS gain is linear.
Hopefully the curve mapping at soft side allow this for any kind of fader curve.

Be careful, for TKD A10K is math, 10K is audio....
I think coreless motor have to be tested, as the new LMH5 series, I will update on this.

For european ppl interested plz don't spam the european distributor with same request, I'm in contact since long time.
Last quotation is 110pce, 20% 5pces, 50% 100pces. On request, 8 week delivery.

BUT if someone ask P&G it will be great, especially if they still have a stereo audo+ servo

Best
Zam

I asked P&G's US distributor last year.

The  D460626 Stereo Motor Fader was around $260 if buying 8 pieces.
The D460625 Mono Motor Fader was around $205 if buying 32 pieces.

gato said:

I asked P&G's US distributor last year.

The  D460626 Stereo Motor Fader was around $260 if buying 8 pieces.
The D460625 Mono Motor Fader was around $205 if buying 32 pieces.

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HOUTCH !!!
Which series is that? PGFM8000? this fader is in the legacy section at P&G website  :-X
and there is no dual audio+servo in all the new line , PGFM3200 nor PGFM9000
Best
Zam

zamproject said:

I don't know any rotary motor switch... ALPS and other offer motor pot

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I have searched hard many times for a motorized rotary switch. There is simply no such thing which is very unfortunate.

Just to be clear there actually are motorized rotary switches but they are enormous crude, slow things the size of your fist that sound like an old typewriter when switching.

If there was no knob shaft, the forces required to switch positions drop greatly in which case I would think a motorized rotary switch could be made quite small, fast and quiet. It could just be a mini stepper mounted on a PCB with contacts on one side and gray code contacts on the other. And with standoffs one could make multiple gangs. If they were small enough, mini motorized rotary switches would be GREAT for pro-audio. I love the idea of being able to recall presets and control things remotely.

Relays are not the right solution for more than 2 positions as the signal traces / path are unnecessarily long and convoluted. Solid state devices like SS relays, digipots or chips like ADG1414 have high on resistance and junction capacitance and so they cannot be used with just any circuit. The circuit would have to be designed around the chip.

So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

Very cool project, I would definitely be in for a production run of pcb's and a group buy on faders.

squarewave said:

So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

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That won't be me doing this sorry, and this is not the right thread to talk about  :-X

Krcwell said:

Very cool project, I would definitely be in for a production run of pcb's and a group buy on faders.

Click to expand...

copy that !

Best
Zam

squarewave said:

So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

Click to expand...

I just saw this. Perhaps not enough torque for turning a multi-deck switch. NB it's not a real product yet.

Andy Peters said:

squarewave said:

So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

Click to expand...

I just saw this. Perhaps not enough torque for turning a multi-deck switch. NB it's not a real product yet.

Click to expand...

Ha! Sorry for hijacking your thread zamproject but this "TheGigRig AutoPot" thing is actually pretty awesome. I still want something small enough to be mounted on a pcb (meaning no knob shaft). And I have to wonder if there is any position sensor or feedback stops. If not, I'm not convinced it could work reliably and repeatedly.

zamproject said:

Let me ear what you guys around think about this.

Best
Zam

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Here's my 2 eurocents worth.

First of all: I've been mixing on very different systems, but mostly what gets used nowadays is in the box mixing. I was coming from an old school analogue huge boards kind of environment, and I still miss the "easy of use" while in production. Most of it, in my personal opinion, has nothing to do with audio quality, but with the human interface: a full board with actual tactile buttons is waaaaay faster, its UI is a mixture of eye-ear-hand cordination, it's something you'll never get on a computer, where you have to tweak back and forth.

The rare time that these days I get to work on a full blown modern studio, I am shocked by the fact that their brand new [insert very expensive name here] analog board doesn't have automation. Even those who get [very expensive name in this case is mostly SSL] older board, don't use the existing automation. This mostly means that modern on-board automated mixing is not possible, and in fact every younger engineer mostly mixes in the box using a huge board as a very expensive summing amplifier. None of them realize what they're missing in term of smoothness of workflow.

So, here's my actual 2 cents, I'd jump on the automated board any day of the year. I've been dreaming of that for about 15 years now. I'm only fearing there's not many people who understand this need.

I wouldn't hesitate one moment once this gets available!


Zander

Spino, I agree with you, even if I came from a more "modern" age where I start ITB.
It could be a long discussion, a philosophic and neuro-scientific one.
I think working sound by looking at a (computer) screen corrupt at subconscious level the way you hear.
Sight and hearing, work great together in a forest to catch prey. But not in a studio to catch Music  ;D

Spino said:

So, here's my actual 2 cents, I'd jump on the automated board any day of the year. I've been dreaming of that for about 15 years now. I'm only fearing there's not many people who understand this need.

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We will see
10 kit should be enough for a first run, it's 80 fader pack.
It's 2ppl with 32 fader and one with 16, or 5ppl with 16fader
I think we already have the potential for this.
I still wait a clear reply from midibox community about my system using MB_NG at soft side

Best
Zam

Hi all

I just run a read pass for your guy about fader noise
It's the TKD MF914 (not the ALPS) so the sliding noise is truly excellent

You will hear a pink noise, that's my console noise floor, and also the motor sparkle remaining, that's what interest us here  :

the file have:
-16sec with 4x4 sec ramp --> 2x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-16sec with 16x1sec ramp --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-8sec with 16x500ms ramp --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-8sec with 16x0ms step (square) --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm. At this set-up the DAW automation lane is faster than motor fader, so the fader is at his max speed (around 100ms for 100mm travel) voltage and current

Master fader of the console is at unity.
Last 8sec are of course the noisiest, but don't correspond to real use case situation, when printing fader automation by hand.
First 40 sec is more real.

You can put this audio file across any other audio file (like lead voice, good test) both at unity, to hear the real impact of the fader

here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdfwq9ds4mrgi1q/89MotioN_1_fader_noise.wav?dl=0

Best
Zam

And here it is 30sec hand writhing automation and playback record, master fader still at unity.
I stay in the +5/-10dB area of the fader (around unity) an move like it was a vocal or instrument adjust at mix.
In that 30 sec fader always move.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghl3js4l3k8fivh/89MotioN_1_fader_noise_2.wav?dl=0

Zam

Hi,
Did someone put an ear at those files?
I'm interested for feedback about the fader motor noise.
For me it's ok, as at "normal" use the sparkle is at my console noise floor, but my 40 years old lady is not an example for this.
Let me know
Best

The only time I could hear any artifacts was on the first file after the 40 sec mark.  The second file didn't have anything I could hear under phones.

-Casey

I also didn't hear anything until about the same time as signalflow reported. I'm going to check soon on my monitors.