electrisizer

studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« on: February 19, 2016, 09:16:24 AM »

hello,
after gettig a lot of help from nice people around this forum in building A  LOT oft DIY gear im now in a new position. bulding up a studio :)

it should be in my cellar and i have 44 square meters availiable for building.

its about L=11m, W=4m, H=2,3m

what would you do? dividing the space in 20m2 mixing room + 24m2 recording room or leave one big space for both?

im recording/mixing some local bands, mainly drums + vocals + guitars.

it would be great help to me to hear your opinion  :)


Whoops

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 03:06:33 PM »
Small mixing rooms never sound good, I would prefer to have a bigger mixing room and smaller recording room than the opposite.

Do you mix more or record more?

If you will spend most your time composing or mixing, and recording only at some occasions then leave it  all in the same room.

moamps

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 05:06:40 PM »
The proportion of the cellar isn't optimal to keep it as one big room, IMO.
Splitting it to two rooms with length  of 5,4 m (close to one golden ratio)  would be much better.

kambo

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 08:36:41 PM »
i guess this is the only topic proves "bigger the better" mixing room....
but, nothing else  ;D

electrisizer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2016, 09:37:55 AM »
The proportion of the cellar isn't optimal to keep it as one big room, IMO.
Splitting it to two rooms with length  of 5,4 m (close to one golden ratio)  would be much better.

ok thanks! after reading a bit around it seems the best solution. ill divide it up in the middle  :)

gato

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2016, 10:44:39 AM »
I would say don't pay attention to "golden ratios" or any of that. Why? Because it assumes that your walls are infinitely rigid and that no sound will pass through. The walls are complex and will pass some frequencies, absorb some, and reflect others. I strongly suggest you read Recording Studio Design by Philip Newell. The cost of the book and the cost of your time reading it are small compared to the undertaking of building a studio.

moamps

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 03:03:29 AM »
The proportion of the cellar isn't optimal to keep it as one big room, IMO.
Splitting it to two rooms with length  of 5,4 m (close to one golden ratio)  would be much better.
ok thanks! after reading a bit around it seems the best solution. ill divide it up in the middle  :)

You can find lot of info about  DIY studio acoustic design here
https://andrealbino.wikispaces.com/file/view/Master+Handbook+of+Acoustics+-+5th+Edition+-+F.+Alton+Everest,+Ken+C.+Pohlmann.pdf



moamps

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 03:07:09 AM »
I would say don't pay attention to "golden ratios" or any of that. Why? Because it assumes that your walls are infinitely rigid and that no sound will pass through......

Sorry but you are wrong.

abbey road d enfer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 11:57:07 AM »

hello,
after gettig a lot of help from nice people around this forum in building A  LOT oft DIY gear im now in a new position. bulding up a studio :)

it should be in my cellar and i have 44 square meters availiable for building.

its about L=11m, W=4m, H=2,3m

what would you do? dividing the space in 20m2 mixing room + 24m2 recording room or leave one big space for both?

im recording/mixing some local bands, mainly drums + vocals + guitars.

it would be great help to me to hear your opinion  :)
If I was in your shoes, I'd want a well insulated control-room (I hate it being in the same room as where music is played and trying to figure out if the sound is right).
And I'd want a drum booth! Recording a live band with the drums in the same space is a PITN.
You don't need 20m² for the control room; unless you have a big Neve or SSL mixer, 12m² is enough (remember you'll need 1 sq meter just for the wall between studio and CR).
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

electrisizer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 12:21:29 PM »
thanks for your input guys!
i have droped the idea of having one room. like you say... recording drums in one room is pain

i have found two studio designs i can really easy adapt to my room:
http://realtraps.com/art_studio.htm
http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Sonar.htm

ill go in this direction. reading an english book about studio design is very difficult to understand in consideration of my bad english.


Whoops

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 12:27:14 PM »
You don't need 20m² for the control room; unless you have a big Neve or SSL mixer, 12m² is enough

Im sorry but I strongly disagree, 20m²  is small already,   Its not a matter of fitting a console there its more that under 25m² the acoustic problems will be so many that you will never have a good sounding mixing room.

But it depends also on the uses,
Will you mix more or do you record more?



abbey road d enfer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 12:44:41 PM »
You don't need 20m² for the control room; unless you have a big Neve or SSL mixer, 12m² is enough

Im sorry but I strongly disagree, 20m²  is small already,   Its not a matter of fitting a console there its more that under 25m² the acoustic problems will be so many that you will never have a good sounding mixing room.
I beg to differ; my CR is less than 12m² and there is nothing wrong acoustically. I have three large Helmoltz resonators (600, 400 and 200 liters) that cure the main resonances, and part of the ceiling is slanted. I agree that it's small in terms of ergonomics but I have no acoustical issue. I've run several analysis that show very good response, although the "sweet spot" is quite limited, but I don't care, I don't move a lot when I mix ;)
Indeed, if I could have a larger CR, I would have it. But I think much of the quality of music is produced when and where  it's made, in the studio. I can mix in a bad CR, probably having to double-check on different systems and numerous iterations, but I want to record in a place where the musicians are comfortable and where spill is not a major concern.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

Whoops

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2016, 02:31:41 PM »
You don't need 20m² for the control room; unless you have a big Neve or SSL mixer, 12m² is enough

Im sorry but I strongly disagree, 20m²  is small already,   Its not a matter of fitting a console there its more that under 25m² the acoustic problems will be so many that you will never have a good sounding mixing room.
I beg to differ; my CR is less than 12m² and there is nothing wrong acoustically. I have three large Helmoltz resonators (600, 400 and 200 liters) that cure the main resonances, and part of the ceiling is slanted. I agree that it's small in terms of ergonomics but I have no acoustical issue. I've run several analysis that show very good response, although the "sweet spot" is quite limited, but I don't care, I don't move a lot when I mix ;)
Indeed, if I could have a larger CR, I would have it. But I think much of the quality of music is produced when and where  it's made, in the studio. I can mix in a bad CR, probably having to double-check on different systems and numerous iterations, but I want to record in a place where the musicians are comfortable and where spill is not a major concern.

Yes we have really completely views on the subject, I have ever to see a small control room sounding good or not having tons of problems. I really dont believe a 12m² will have a good translation at all on Bass, and this is just part of the problem.
But I'm a mix Engineer so my standards on what a mixing room should be are probably much higher than other people.

As for Electrisizer question, we still dont know what are the main uses for the studio?
If you will mainly compose, or mix there and then only do 2 records a year, I dont see the point of having a miniature control room and a Drum booth.
If you will record a lot there, and not do a lot of mixing  maybe you can have a smaller control room, and have a drums booth and Amplifiers small booths also.

Tell us about your work?


abbey road d enfer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 02:58:41 PM »
Yes we have really completely views on the subject, I have ever to see a small control room sounding good or not having tons of problems. I really dont believe a 12m² will have a good translation at all on Bass, and this is just part of the problem.
You are entitled to your opinions. I agree that a large room is much easier to align than a smaller one, still it's not an impossible task.
Quote
But I'm a mix Engineer
And what do you think I am? I was talking about my home studio, not the many studios I had the opportunity to work in, which, incidentally, are gone for the majority, since the bulk of music is now produced in smaller spaces.
Quote
so my standards on what a mixing room should be are probably much higher than other people.
I gave an answer that was commensurate with the elements I was given. According to your standards, the CR would take 3/4 of the space ant the studio area would be 100sq. ft.
Quote

As for Electrisizer question, we still dont know what are the main uses for the studio?
I think he was pretty clear on this: "im recording/mixing some local bands, mainly drums + vocals + guitars."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 03:02:53 PM by abbey road d enfer »
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

Whoops

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 03:05:05 PM »
"im recording/mixing some local bands, mainly drums + vocals + guitars."

Hi  Electrisizer,
I asked before, but to be more clear,
whats the ratio between mixing and recording of your work?




jensenmann

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 01:36:28 PM »
I would say don't pay attention to "golden ratios" or any of that. Why? Because it assumes that your walls are infinitely rigid and that no sound will pass through. The walls are complex and will pass some frequencies, absorb some, and reflect others.

While this may be right in other parts of the world it is totally wrong in Germany. We have extremely dense and rigid stone or concrete basements which will reflect to the lowest frequencies and barely absorb anything. There are indeed some room dimension ratios which allow an even spread of room modes across the frequency range. It is a very good idea to use these ratios because that way you get rid of ugly modes that are uncontrollable by standard acoustic treatment.
Philip Newell´s books are indeed some of the best available about this subject. Even he advocates using these room dimension ratios.
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort

gato

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2016, 02:38:24 PM »
from the Master Handbook of Acoustics:

“it is important to remember that there is no ideal ratio of dimensions. Furthermore, the quest for a perfect ratio is an impossible one. In real rooms, the structural integrity of the room is not uniform at low frequencies; with a given sound source location, the various modes are not excited equally; and a seated listener can only hear a few of the modes. Modal response is a genuine problem, but predicting the response with certainty using generalized assumptions is very difficult. In other words, working from general guidelines and recommendations, the modal response of each room must be considered on a case-by-case basis.”
p. 722

I know Newell expresses a similar sentiment, but I can't find it in his books. I have the Kindle Editions and not hardcopies and I find them harder to review quickly. Also, this may have been relayed in personal communication.

In practical terms, when you build a room within a room there are various things happening where the inner shell is absorptive both from the vibration of individual drywall sheets as well as from the vibration of entire walls. This is at the lowest frequencies. Using deadsheet can help bring this action into low-mids as well. That the OP would be doing this may be an incorrect assumption. And again, looking at a case by case basis Jen's suggestion that this may be more of the case in Germany is of course valid.

Anyways, I'm not saying that optimal modal distribution is not important, but I would place it after other design considerations especially those that pertain to user comfort.

electrisizer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2016, 07:01:12 AM »
some progress... pulling old walls off

electrisizer

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2016, 07:06:17 AM »
and builing a new wall... three layer special gypsum, promising a 71db insulation

next week ill do the floor installation  :)

Whoops

Re: studio building 44m2 - one room/two rooms?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 12:45:29 PM »
Nice work.