DaveP

How did they get that sound live?
« on: February 20, 2016, 01:03:26 PM »
I'm hoping some of the sound guys on this forum might throw some light on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzOsQAMtpm0

The first time I heard this live performance I was stunned by the bass and kick and snare sound, all just about perfect.

How would they have eq'd them, any ideas?

Best
DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.


JohnRoberts

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2016, 01:59:43 PM »
What you may be hearing sounds like the drums are gated so you only get the initial attack and a brief amount of after ring. Eq doesn't do that.  Sounds like reverb on the drum was gated too (perhaps through same gate).

They may even be triggering canned drum samples, but gating drums is useful live too...

Last weekend I saw Sting on TV perform "live" at the NBA all star game. If that bass line was him playing the song live I'm a monkey's uncle.  More like preforming karaoke (or a really good bass player off camera playing all the notes), I believe he probably sang.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

weiss

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2016, 02:06:54 PM »
the snare sounds great to me but the kick? a lot of rumble going on down there

Pip

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2016, 11:47:05 PM »
Well the fact that it is Mick Fleetwood and John McVie has all to do with it IMO! Without any real ability to argue it they are one of the greatest rock-pop rhythm sections ever! It's in the hands mate it's in the hands!

Just look at how unorthodox that drum pattern is that Mick is playing and he is grooving the everlovin' you know what out of it!
Pip
New York City
http://geosonixlab.com

DaveP

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2016, 07:30:55 AM »
Quote
Last weekend I saw Sting on TV perform "live" at the NBA all star game. If that bass line was him playing the song live I'm a monkey's uncle.  More like preforming karaoke (or a really good bass player off camera playing all the notes), I believe he probably sang.

You are dead right, his bass line was pre-recorded and they were able to do that because all the songs ran into each other without a break.  The rest was live but he made little attempt to follow.  I guess with such a short spot, it's not possible to set up the sound  for a totally live performance, in the time available.

The Fleetwood Mac track was live though as it was recorded for their live album "Dance".  If you look to the right hand side of the stage you can see something going on behind the scenary.

Quote
Without any real ability to argue it they are one of the greatest rock-pop rhythm sections ever! It's in the hands mate it's in the hands!

No-one will argue with you there and it is in the hands, but they have done something else to the sound as well I'm sure of that, maybe it is gated (I have no experience of that technique) .

DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

Whoops

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2016, 10:26:50 PM »
I'm hoping some of the sound guys on this forum might throw some light on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzOsQAMtpm0

The first time I heard this live performance I was stunned by the bass and kick and snare sound, all just about perfect.

How would they have eq'd them, any ideas?

Best
DaveP

once you have the multitrack then you take it to the studio and everything can be done there.

Vocals will be tuned

Any mistakes will be punched in or edited.

Samples can be added to Snare, kick and toms

any Eq needed can be applied, or not applied it there's no need for it.

Gating by simply muting the waveform between beats is quite normal, or any gate plugin

there's so much that can be done in editing/post production and mixing stage nowadays that it will be hard to guess,
But as a mixing engineer I don't hear anything in particular about EQ or any tricks here that go beyond of what engineers normally do to make it sound good.


DaveP

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 01:30:46 PM »
Quote
once you have the multitrack then you take it to the studio and everything can be done there.

Vocals will be tuned

Any mistakes will be punched in or edited.

Samples can be added to Snare, kick and toms

any Eq needed can be applied, or not applied it there's no need for it.

Gating by simply muting the waveform between beats is quite normal, or any gate plugin

there's so much that can be done in editing/post production and mixing stage nowadays that it will be hard to guess,
But as a mixing engineer I don't hear anything in particular about EQ or any tricks here that go beyond of what engineers normally do to make it sound good.

I agree with all of that being normal practice nowadays as you say, but we are not talking about a multitrack in a studio we are talking a live performance back in 97, that's nearly 20 years ago! and autotune was only released the same year, I can't imagine that they would have started using that live before it became better known.  I was more interested in the drums and bass sound in any case.  The bass sounds really deep but there seems to be a lot of 200-400Hz to my ears on the drums.  Wish I had a frequency analyzer! :-\
best
DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

Whoops

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 03:00:18 PM »
Quote
once you have the multitrack then you take it to the studio and everything can be done there.

Vocals will be tuned

Any mistakes will be punched in or edited.

Samples can be added to Snare, kick and toms

any Eq needed can be applied, or not applied it there's no need for it.

Gating by simply muting the waveform between beats is quite normal, or any gate plugin

there's so much that can be done in editing/post production and mixing stage nowadays that it will be hard to guess,
But as a mixing engineer I don't hear anything in particular about EQ or any tricks here that go beyond of what engineers normally do to make it sound good.

I agree with all of that being normal practice nowadays as you say, but we are not talking about a multitrack in a studio we are talking a live performance back in 97, that's nearly 20 years ago! and autotune was only released the same year, I can't imagine that they would have started using that live before it became better known.  I was more interested in the drums and bass sound in any case.  The bass sounds really deep but there seems to be a lot of 200-400Hz to my ears on the drums.  Wish I had a frequency analyzer! :-\
best
DaveP

I didn't know it was in 97,
but anyway the same applies to 97, maybe not using melodyne in the studio, but the rest is the same without plugins but using all the tools the studios have.
Once you take the multitrack to the studio everything can be done, the full bass line can be re recorded and you will never know.

It sound really good and thanks for sharing with us,  what I wanted to explain is that that bass sound can be as simple as being the sound of his Bass directly to a DI, or can be really EQued or Compressed or can even be replaced by a new bass line recorded in the studio after the gig.
Its impossible to know for sure.
I listened to it quite a few times, the bass has some present mid range in the 800hz area it helps to define the notes in the middle of the mix, the sound of the bass itself is normal in that type of bass instruments with active pickups, Warwick , Tobias, Fodera , all of them have that characteristic when recorded direct, the bass low end is also what to be expected from those type instruments.

But as I told before everything could have been done or not, anything I could say  is just a wild guess.



« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 08:20:56 PM by Whoops »

Brian Roth

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 10:19:40 PM »
As has been discussed, a live recording of a band "at that level" of Fleetwood Mac would have been done after a 3-way split from the stage mics.  Front of House, Stage Monitors, and the Recording Truck.  Judging from the time frame, the Truck likely had several multitrack machines...analog or digital.

Once the tapes got into a studio, then all of the Usual Tweaks would be done, just as if the tracks were recorded in the studio.

I've had the chance to "play" with some older live multitrack recordings that sounded a bit sketchy by themselves, but after using studio Tweakology actually sounded more like an album.

Bri
Brian Roth Technical Services
Salina Kansas, home of the best vinyl on the planet!

http://www.BrianRoth.com
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store.acousticsounds.com

JohnRoberts

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 11:07:11 AM »
Noise gates have been around since the 70's(?). I designed my first one in the 80s. But they were mainly used in the studio. As the name suggests, noise gates primary function is to reduce unwanted noise, but they can also be used to add punch to transients (like drums) with a relatively high threshold.

I will second Brian's suggestion that the sound was probably "sweetened" after the performance, not a live recording captured from inside the room during the performance.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...


DaveP

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 12:56:49 PM »
Quote
I will second Brian's suggestion that the sound was probably "sweetened" after the performance, not a live recording captured from inside the room during the performance.

Yes, I think you're right, I hadn't thought about that, I assumed it was the live sound I was hearing, but as it is an official video (not amateur bootleg) I think you are right about the post production.

Thanks to all for your contribution.
Best
DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

kambo

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 07:24:26 PM »
zeppelin's live album is way older,  1976;
it has ton of punch_ins in studio  8)

audiomixer

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 03:15:09 AM »
Not sure I am missing something here, but this seems to be a live performance remixed for broadcast. split all signals from the stage. multitrack record or (if you are real good at it) mix it live on dedicated desk (probably not done here). all the processing is yours.... can get as good as a studio production in my opinion. this does not in any way tell how good the performance was for the audience, by the way. If you look at most live dvds you will notice that the mix often follows video, meaning accentuating the sound of the instrument / player visible. a terrible 'feature'!

I mixed live for audience a few years back, and had the broadcaster do a live mix for on the air. very nice mix indeed. the broadcast mix engineer did not have to worry about feedback, monitors, live sound from stage... he could nicely clean up the signals with lots of gating / compression and EQ to taste. In smaller venues EQ'ing is often limited by feedback and the stage sound.

good songs tend to be the ones with accurate and thoughtful production - how many instruments, when do you hear them, when do they quiet down. specially the last one counts in my opinion. leaving space for 'events' in a song are key.

my 2c

Michael

peterc

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2016, 05:35:17 AM »
Looks like it was a full on album DVD release.

Remixed by some of the best in the business:

 Guy Charbonneau, Barry Goldberg, Elliot Scheiner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dance_%28Fleetwood_Mac_album%29

That voice just kills me every time......
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.

DaveP

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 06:32:30 AM »
Now I feel stupid, I should have done my homework first! :-[

I must have missed this the first time around, then just picked up on it on youtube 20 years later DOH!

Thanks
DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

abbey road d enfer

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 12:22:49 PM »
the snare sounds great to me but the kick? a lot of rumble going on down there
I second JR's opinion that they probably used samples triggered by the real drums, or Brian's that some parts have been re-recorded.
Rumble on kick is just a consequence of spill into the microphones of the tracks that have been kept (after all they can't replace ALL the live tracks with studio takes - or can they?????).
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

audiomixer

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 03:25:39 AM »
I second JR's opinion that they probably used samples triggered by the real drums, or Brian's that some parts have been re-recorded.
Rumble on kick is just a consequence of spill into the microphones of the tracks that have been kept (after all they can't replace ALL the live tracks with studio takes - or can they?????).
loud sources miced closely like snare and kick can be very clean on live recordings. if the spill of adjacent drum parts are handled with care (directional mics pointing in the right direction) this should not present a problem later on. carefull gating and muting of toms does the rest. the low frequency rumble might be a taste decision after all and could try to reflect the 'live' character. that does not say that all of the post processing mentioned earlier has not taken place.

Michael

abbey road d enfer

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 05:14:24 AM »
I second JR's opinion that they probably used samples triggered by the real drums, or Brian's that some parts have been re-recorded.
Rumble on kick is just a consequence of spill into the microphones of the tracks that have been kept (after all they can't replace ALL the live tracks with studio takes - or can they?????).
loud sources miced closely like snare and kick can be very clean on live recordings. if the spill of adjacent drum parts are handled with care (directional mics pointing in the right direction) this should not present a problem later on. carefull gating and muting of toms does the rest. the low frequency rumble might be a taste decision after all and could try to reflect the 'live' character. that does not say that all of the post processing mentioned earlier has not taken place.

Michael
Indeed, spill from adjacent drum mics can be gated, with mitigated results, but I was talking about the various mics, particularly vocal mics that cannot be gated.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

0dbfs

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2016, 05:59:53 PM »
It might be that gating vocals and even toms can be sketchy - but in a post mix scenario with automation you can also mute - or spot erase between vocal phrases or tom fills if no automation... And we only spot erase on the safety copy right?

Cheers!
-jb
Music is everything!
Audio is everything else!

Whoops

Re: How did they get that sound live?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2016, 10:16:20 PM »
but in a post mix scenario with automation you can also mute - or spot erase between vocal phrases

Yes definitely,
also for vocals using an expander in this situation is not uncommon, I use that a lot when I mix live records.
Backing vocals can be Gated most of the time