Brexit

Quiet here ...

Ms May has handed in our resignation notice then. Sad day.

ramshackles said:

Ms May has handed in our resignation notice then. Sad day.

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A great opportunity to throw off the shackles of Brussels beaurocracy.

Cheers

Ian

Every coin has two sides.

abbey road d enfer said:

Every coin has two sides.

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That's exactly what Brit will experiment now... as they always try to keep in on the slice before...  :-X

Beside the joke I have some read recently, in 2014 the final EU "cost" for UK is only 0.23% of the GDB.
I'm afraid it will look more like a UKxplode than a Brexit at the end  :-\
Best
Zam

zamproject said:

That's exactly what Brit will experiment now... as they always try to keep in on the slice before...  :-X

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The actual figure is close to twice that. But that is only the cash we pay to the EU. The opportunity cost is a lot higher.

Now perhaps our fishermen will be able to fish in our own seas. Perhaps we will be able to rescue the steel industry. It is not so much about what we want to keep, it is more about what we have lost.

Cheers

Ian

Cheers

ian

Hurrah! Now we can use proper incandescent light bulbs!

(energy saving, pah! only an idiot would fail to realise the heating thermostat negates that assertion)

Have you folks in UK noticed the cost of goods rising? I've read inflation is rising already.

dmp said:

Have you folks in UK noticed the cost of goods rising? I've read inflation is rising already.

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Happens all the time everywhere. What is your point or are you just rolling?

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

Happens all the time everywhere. What is your point or are you just rolling?

Cheers

Ian

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What does "rolling" mean?  Do you mean trolling?
The UK, like the US, has had low measures of inflation for the past few years. I was seeing expectations that it would be higher with Brexit. Maybe it won't be, I don't know.

Scotlands First Minister asks the Prime Minister for powers to hold a second independence referendum.
https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

Ever since 1968 I've considered England my second  motherland.

Next time I cross the pond, it'll likely be to Scotland. 

Partly joking.
Not liking the attitude of some, though.

Many of you Europeans are missing the point.

I voted to remain because I have built my life about living in France, but I do understand why over half the UK population voted to leave.

Merkel summed it up back in Oct 2010:-
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451

The same problem has arisen in the Netherlands and France, the culture of the host nations feels like it is being swamped.  The politicians have been so remote from ordinary people that they failed to realise what has been happening with their policies.

In desperation the people have turned to Farage, Wilders and Marine le Pen to stem the flow of immigrants.

It does not take an economic genius to see that globalisation makes company bosses and shareholders rich and the people who lost their jobs to foreign countries poor and unemployed, the liberal left have abandoned their core voters on this issue, Globalisation = unemployment and poverty at home and loss of skills it took generations to build.

DaveP

DaveP said:

Many of you Europeans are missing the point.

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Really?

I voted to remain because I have built my life about living in France, but I do understand why over half the UK population voted to leave.

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Are you saying that if you were living in Britain, you'd have voted leave?
Or in other words, you only vote with your own situation in mind?
Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

Let me say that I'm not as fond of the EU as some may think. Yes, it's become a playground for multinationals. That sucks for sure.
But with this Brexit I see polarisation and hostility emerge and I'm afraid this will only get worse. All countries have a responsibility there, including the country that started this, I would think.

A couple of days ago there was a short documentary in which they asked British living in The Netherlands how they see their future. Most stated that they would "trade" their British passport for a Dutch one, if need be. But some reacted very defensive, without being provoked at all. (!) One guy, well educated so likely not ignorant, got all heated up out of the blue and even said: "we liberated you in WWII".  Stuff like that. And often uttered by boomers, who belong to the luckiest generation ever. The guy who said "we" wasn't old enough to have experienced that war. But he was old enough to still hang on to the old island feeling. Not the case with most youngsters.

All-in-all I see nationalism growing as well as hostility. And that's a dangerous combination.
And if Britain enters the negotiations with "we decided to leave, but we won't pay a cent" ," that's our sea", etc. etc. etc.  then not much good will come from it. For any country, including the UK.
Yes, "the continent" has a responsibility, too.

micaddict said:

Ever since 1968 I've considered England my second  motherland.

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And why would you have felt any different had we not joined the Common Market in the 70s?

Cheers

Ian

[silent:arts] said:

Scotlands First Minister asks the Prime Minister for powers to hold a second independence referendum.
https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

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Sturgeon is a one-trick pony and IMO a nasty peice of work who puts her one trick ahead of the practical reality of what is going on.  I must admit having sympathies with Longshanks (Edward I) on this. (English humour).

The Scots I have spoken with on this subject see another Scottish referendum as "She didn't get the answer she wanted last time so she's going for another one until she does", and as a parallel to the so-called 'Bemoanders' who still refuse to accept the outcome of the UK Brexit referendum.  Scotland were in the UK and took part in the Brexit vote when it was was taken and should accept the outcome of it in line with the rest of the UK.

I think that some of our collonial cousins have been listening to Fox News again: there is not a great wave of anti-european  and rising British/English Nationalism  breaking out on the streets.  As Ian has pointed out several times, and with which I agree, there IS a sentiment of politicians in the UK and Europe  being out of touch and pursuing their own agendas instead of fundamentally 'protecting the weak' which is what they are supposed to do.

Mike

Are you saying that if you were living in Britain, you'd have voted leave?
Or in other words, you only vote with your own situation in mind?
Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

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I could have been clearer, I would still have voted to remain if I was still in the UK as I believe we are stronger together.

But that does not mean that I don't have sympathy for the reasons why they voted for Brexit.

I  think that the EU works best for Germany because the Euro makes its goods competitive, if they still had the Deutsche mark their exports would be too expensive.

And often uttered by boomers, who belong to the luckiest generation ever. The guy who said "we" wasn't old enough to have experienced that war. But he was old enough to still hang on to the old island feeling. Not the case with most youngsters.

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I don't feel lucky, I grew up with rationing and played on bombsites and my father was seriously screwed up after serving in the war.  Then after that we lived with nuke tests and the 4 minute warning, culminating in the cuban missile crisis.  My pension paid out 16% of what I signed up for, hence move to France, only to be screwed over by Brexit, no, I don't feel lucky.

DaveP

ruffrecords said:

And why would you have felt any different had we not joined the Common Market in the 70s?

Cheers

Ian

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My first visit to England was in 1968. I was five years old and obviously I didn't know what the Common Market was. England was the only foreign country we spent our holidays, which of course was my parents' choice, not mine. We stayed with friends BTW (both "low and higher class"), not in hotels. Since I had no other foreign countries to compare to, I may have been biased. But I soon fell in love with England. I went back many times and it sort of feels like home now. Which is why I feel I have some (!) right to criticise. The love bit prevails, mind, and that will probably never change.

Entering the Common Market is one thing. Happy campers on both sides. Leaving the EU, especially in the way the whole thing has been put in the pipeline (!) may very well become a rather nasty and polarising battle.  And that hurts this Dutch guy more than you know.

DaveP wrote:

I don't feel lucky, I grew up with rationing and played on bombsites and my father was seriously screwed up after serving in the war.  Then after that we lived with nuke tests and the 4 minute warning, culminating in the cuban missile crisis.  My pension paid out 16% of what I signed up for, hence move to France, only to be screwed over by Brexit, no, I don't feel lucky.

DaveP

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All things are relative. The majority on this planet would likely gladly have traded places with you. But no doubt there'll be happier boomers. And as always, the whole concept is one of generalisation. Some people will not apply. And more than some will think they don't apply.

In any case, most boomers seem to feel they have more to lose than they have to gain. This is different for youngsters/millennials. And the latter generation is too young to make up the balance for anyway. But we do already know they are the ones who will have to clean up the mess later on.
I'm one of the in-betweens myself BTW (Generation X), but I won't bother you with that one.

What amazes me most when it comes to boomers (yes, generalising again) is that many got stuck into what I would call old time thinking. Ironically this is the generation that once was known for flower power, love peace and happiness, that sort of thing; doing away with the old ways of the parents. But in hindsight it was only a hickup. Yeah, I know, they finally got wise after all ...
And now many of them support clowns like Trump who wants to get back to them good ol' days. Let's make America great again. And he's not talking about the era of love, peace and happiness there. The fifties, rather, or earlier still. You know, that great time when e.g. facilities in the US were for white or colored only. And things (I've edited those out, because I actually got sick myself when re-reading them) that took place because they were either accepted, not talked about or both. Let's just say that era and the way of thinking was pretty sick in some ways.

Keeping up appearances is a known phenomena to the British, if I may say so. As is understatement. But hiding things doesn't make them greater. And not all all traditions are worth keeping.
Great Britain once was "great" because it ruled the world. As a result, English is now world language number one. Although I love (!) the language for other reasons, this ranking is not something to be proud of IMO. Dave, I even recall you saying that the colonised countries owe the British for giving them great infrastructure. Frankly, I was shocked when I read that. IMO that is old thinking, putting it mildly. And you took me by surprise there (which can be taken as a compliment).
I'll add that my own country isn't much better in this regard. A decade or so ago we had a prime minister who stood in front of Dutch parliament and said with a loud voice: "We need to go back to that good old VOC mentality!"

I truly believe the "great again" notion will backfire on those who put their trust in it.


Henk

I even recall you saying that the colonised countries owe the British for giving them great infrastructure. Frankly, I was shocked when I read that. IMO that is old thinking, putting it mildly. And you took me by surprise there (which can be taken as a compliment).

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What I actually said came from a conversation I had  when I flew back from Kinshasa in 1977.  We stopped at Lagos and picked up a Nigerian  guy.  It was he who surprised me by saying that he was very pleased that the British had built the underground Metro in Lagos and had built a lot of good infrastructure.  The current liberal thinking is that colonisation was all bad, I think that a lot of people did suffer at the time, but maybe their great grand children are reaping some of the benefits?  At least one African thought so.

Look at the alternative if Europeans had never intervened in any way whatsoever.  The  people would have been left as a living  stone age museum exhibit, much like the Amazonian tribes now.  The population would have been kept stable by the food supply and unchecked and untreated disease at a much lower level than it is today.  The younger generation in Africa are embracing mobile phones and the internet, do you think they would have got there without colonisation and independence?

Why would so many Africans want to risk everything to get to the countries of their former colonial masters, if it had all been so bad, surely they would have not wanted to have anything to do with us.  Certainly it is hard to see why so many former colonies were happy to join the Commonwealth after independence, if the British were so hated for what they had done.

Liberal dogma is one thing, reality in the minds of Africans is quite another.

DaveP

Hate to say it, Dave, but these are rather crude theories, that cannot hold up against the historical facts.
They even sound quite cynical to me, though I don´t think you´re a cynical person.

Britain (and all the other nations, Germany amongst them) established colonialism to keep up the supply of resources needed for industrialisation. And they took all they wanted, not by trade, but by force of arms and they were not particularly touchy about commiting some atrocities on the way. And the infrastructural developments done in the colonies where mostly ways to make this process of resource-draining more effective. People immigrating into the UK etc. did so mostly because of hardship and poverty.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/18/uncovering-truth-british-empire-caroline-elkins-mau-mau