Brexit

ruffrecords said:

It is extremely difficult to be accurate about history, even recent history, because that demands we be objective but that is impossible.

Cheers

Ian

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History "should" be an objective exercise but as the old saw goes history is written by the winners/survivors. Emphasis and omission can often tell a somewhat different story.

It seems modern/recent history is likely to be more subjective and opinionated than older history that has sorted out more of the BS. Current events is almost a guessing game to decode what might have actually happened from who said what and their personal agendas.

One recent example is the reminiscences about the deceased President George HW Bush. During one of his presidential campaigns decades ago he was characterized by his political opposition as a "wimp" (probably ageism because he was older than his opponent).  This is the same guy who was shot down as a young navy fighter pilot in WWII (rescued by a submarine), ran the CIA, and much more in a lifetime career of public service... about as far from being a wimp as humanly possible... It is nice to see him get (mostly) favorable treatment now in the recent revisit of his life history.

I read a lot of history and often different treatments about the same events (like world wars) reveal new angles or facts. All versions can be true but from different perspectives. I caution about taking Hollywood's sundry versions of history as more than mindless entertainment. It bothers me when current entertainment TV shows use time travel as a device to share their versions of past history. For many that is all they ever get.

JR

Interesting and valuable  perspectives from all sides ,

I lived away from Ireland a few of my teenage years ,and returned  later , I wasnt too happy about being up rooted and sent to a new school in a different country initially ,but actually I had a fresh perspective on my home country on my return ,and a view that was impossible to see from within. Of course I did have to withstand the indignation of my fellow classmates, mostly with UK connections, over the IRA's actions . Once the  'boogie man' image of the Irish was overcome , I made friends with them all .

I have to admit to some admiration for the French people in their abillity to stand together , Im certainly not in support riots or riots squads though .Here in Ireland the only group with serious clout is the farmers union ,125 thousand strong ,and when they shut the place down the government starts to listen very very quickly .

And yes John I wholeheartedly agree ,this Hollywood airbrushed history just facillitates the delusion .

 

Had to laugh earlier ,
there was a clip of May arriving to meet  Merkel , the rear drivers side door on the gigantic Maybach somehow  jammed and refused to open , May spent a full 15 seconds waiting to get out ,amid a flurry of activity on the part of the red carpet staff and the car driver .  :-[ doh

In a repeat of the Thatcher coup last century, it looks like the vultures have been plotting while May was abroad. I just hope if she goes we don't get Boris as PM. God help us.

Cheers

Ian

I will never forgive Boris and Mogg and the rest of the hooray henries for their disloyalty and their disregard for the working men and women who may lose their jobs.

I think May deserves more respect, but this was done too well to miss:- ;D
https://www.ouest-france.fr/europe/royaume-uni/theresa-may/andy-serkis-reprend-son-role-de-gollum-pour-parodier-theresa-may-et-son-precieux-brexit-6123221

DaveP

The vote of no confidence in Teresa May has taken place. Votes are bing counted as I write this. The result is expected within an hour.

Cheers

Ian

And she survived the vote... 

From what I can tell in this tread that’s good news?

cyrano said:

And she survived the vote... 

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Sorry, haven't got a clue.

From what I can tell,  it's all so manipulated, it hardly matters.

fazer said:

From what I can tell in this tread that’s good news?

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Probably. She can go back to the EU and say Parliament will not accept this deal we need to renegotiate. But if you don't then we will have to leave with no deal and you will like that even less. Either way we leave next March and Mrs May's leadership cannot be challenged by the Conservative Party for another 12 months.

However, Parliament as a whole can force a vote of no confidence. If she loses that there will probably be a general election and there are enough MPs who realise the public is really pissed off with them for not doing what the electorate voted for that they will probably lose their seats. Corbyn would probably benefit from a general election but the minorities who now hold the balance of power would not so they may vote to keep her because that means they keep their jobs.

As usual the effing politicians put themselves first.

Cheers

Ian

cyrano said:

Sorry, haven't got a clue.

From what I can tell,  it's all so manipulated, it hardly matters.

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Whatever happens the country voted to leave. In the end the politicians have no choice but to obey because not to would be undemocratic and would almost certainly be legally challenged.

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

Whatever happens the country voted to leave. In the end the politicians have no choice but to obey because not to would be undemocratic and would almost certainly be legally challenged.

Cheers

Ian

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In 2005, France and the Netherlands voted NO to a referendum for the revised European constitution. In 2008, though, the French and Dutch governments ratified the Lisbon treaty. It was utterly antidemocratic and heavily criticized, but never seriously legally challenged...
What had changed in the meantime was that the referendum procedure would be transformed into a parliamentary procedure.
Now, 20 years later, as history is being rewritten by the winners, there is no mention of a referendum for France and the Netherlands in the official website of the Robert Schuman foundation.
I don't doubt politicians would find a "legal" way to overrule the Brexit vote if they had something to gain from it.

The crazy thing, is that the UK voted to leave without the real info on the consequences.  Now that they realise that there are so many downsides to leaving, recent polling has shown the majority now want to remain!

If Parliament rejects May's deal they will have to go back to the country again or face no deal.  The government won't risk a general election because they will be hammered for division (UK hates divided parties). They may well decide that a second referendum is the the least bad option and it absolves them of responsibility.

DaveP

DaveP said:

The crazy thing, is that the UK voted to leave without the real info on the consequences.  Now that they realise that there are so many downsides to leaving, recent polling has shown the majority now want to remain!

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I don't set much store by polls

If Parliament rejects May's deal they will have to go back to the country again or face no deal. 
The government won't risk a general election because they will be hammered for division (UK hates divided parties). They may well decide that a second referendum is the the least bad option and it absolves them of responsibility.

DaveP

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The only legal vote was the referendum. Whatever the reasons, leaving was the voters choice. You cannot keep going back asking the question again until you get the answer you want. May has said she is mandated by the electorate to deliver Brexit and that is what she plans to do. The only question is what the deal will be. Whether we leave or not is not up for discussion - the Remainers want it to be but a second referendum would be constitutionally unsound and certain to be subject to a legal challenge.

I agree, a General Election is out of the question unless Corbyn plays his no confidence card too.

Cheers

Ian

The only legal vote was the referendum. Whatever the reasons, leaving was the voters choice. You cannot keep going back asking the question again until you get the answer you want. May has said she is mandated by the electorate to deliver Brexit and that is what she plans to do. The only question is what the deal will be. Whether we leave or not is not up for discussion - the Remainers want it to be but a second referendum would be constitutionally unsound and certain to be subject to a legal challenge.

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As Parliament is the legislative assembly, they can make whatever they do legal.

The government will not have a majority to push the deal through, but no-one wants to be responsible for causing us to exit with no deal, that is what Labour and the rest of the opposition are terrified about, because it will lose them the next election.  With MP's worried about losing their seats or upsetting their electors, they may well choose to send it back to the people so that they can't be blamed for the outcome.

DaveP

What dawned on me is the real reason the powers that be want out.

It's not about the economy. It's about power. The power to control the population. And that is very much obstructed by the EU's human rights charter. Once they're out, the first thing to go is that charter.

The EHCR allows any citizen to take matters to a special court in Strassbourg. Very annoying to the UK powers, especially in Northern Ireland. They want GCHQ to spy on everyone. Of course, political opponents will get some more interest than your average Brit.

They've already crossed legal limits on several occasions. Only, it wasn't a human they were targeting, it was a business. And businesses can't go to the Human Rights court in Strassbourg.

The crazy thing, is that the UK voted to leave without the real info on the consequences.

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1+
Yes, crazy. And they did so without real info from both sides... 

And let's not forget that referendums have never been and still are generally not binding in the UK. Really crazy, ain't it? And there are legal consequences that go with that.

I know it isn't popular, but I somewhat believe in consistency, so I'd really would have wanted to see the likes of Boris and Gove et al. pulling the Brexit cart alone. More cathartic that way.

Anyway, in my view, May's inheritance and Brexit endeavour has never been and still is no more than an attempt at restoring credibility in British politics and politicians -- mainly at a domestic level. Well, the options are on the table now. Shitty deal, no deal, coming up with a different deal in the short time remaining, or the option of an exit from Brexit as ruled by the EU court as of late (again legal consequences coming with that).

No matter what they decide in London, I'm pretty confident it's accounted for by most large non-UK companies by now. Unlike private people and small to mid-cap companies, those bigger companies do have the resources after all.

A Japanese financial lawyer friend of mine (supreme court license) has been in London for almost two years now overseeing and preparing legal proceedings of imbuing company demergers and compensation settlements for their clients in the event of Brexit.

In the event of a no-deal outcome, it sounds pretty straightforward -- but also particularly messy and harmful. I'd assume several companies will simply pull the plug and sue for compensation, while others will sue for compensation as leverage for a more favourable post-Brexit deal.

Anyway, it has been and still is a particularly busy year for me. Just a few more days and then it's Merry Christmas for us all 

Script said:

1+
Yes, crazy. And they did so without real info from both sides... 

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Which ignores the fact the the public were not interested in 'info'. Those who voted for Brexit were simply fed up with being controlled by nameless unelected bureaucrats in the EU. They would much rather be controlled by fellow Brits in Parliament because at least they can kick them out and if they are really keen they can become one themselves.  Better to be poor and free.

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

Which ignores the fact the the public were not interested in 'info'. Those who voted for Brexit were simply fed up with being controlled by nameless unelected bureaucrats in the EU. They would much rather be controlled by fellow Brits in Parliament because at least they can kick them out and if they are really keen they can become one themselves.  Better to be poor and free.

Cheers

Ian

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This sentiment is why the EU is playing hardball with UK over exit... They don't want it to be painless and encourage other member counties with similar complaints to follow a similar path. This is a challenge to the entire union, so how this ends up matters.

JR

ruffrecords said:

Which ignores the fact the the public were not interested in 'info'. Those who voted for Brexit were simply fed up with being controlled by nameless unelected bureaucrats in the EU. They would much rather be controlled by fellow Brits in Parliament because at least they can kick them out and if they are really keen they can become one themselves.  Better to be poor and free.

Cheers

Ian

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Ian

I have much respect for you, but I can't agree with that !
Your government as other in EU build the system to be like this since decades, UK have responsibilities too, it's not always other's fault. UK always influence and lobby for a ultra liberal way, it's one of the cause of denigration citizen have
We all build this boat. Like you I'm not happy with what you call -nameless unelected bureaucrats-, still our government including UK  seat them...

JohnRoberts said:

This sentiment is why the EU is playing hardball with UK over exit... They don't want it to be painless and encourage other member counties with similar complaints to follow a similar path. This is a challenge to the entire union, so how this ends up matters.

JR

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I don't think there is a EU motivation to make UK suffer just for the example, everything have consequences and a cost that's it  :-\
EU can't fall because of brexit, other countries won't let this happen... (I'm sure some UK politician like to bring EU down with them, better for ultra-liberalism and business)

Also I don't get how some UK citizen can believe May will renegotiate ?!? this is a lie... like some of the brexit argument
EU was clear and repeat it all day long again, this one is the deal or no deal...

And last, about UK as "example", and why I think it's not necessary a pain wish from EU.
This is one point nobody never talk about, nuclear weapon, UK is fine alone, but now in EU only France have it, I don't see any country leaving EU, and lost this protection.
I have no idea what is the cost for this, I think it's in the unofficial balance, and why FR is relatively free with it's "3%" since years

Best
Zam