RS127 RS135

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ruffrecords

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
16,239
Location
Norfolk - UK
Anybody have EMI RS127 or RS 135 brilliance module I could borrow for a few days to look under the hood and measure? I am interested in seeing if they managed to avoid the inductor self resonance problems I am having with a couple of my EQs and if so how they did it.

Cheers

Ian
 
I am very interested to hear about the problems you're having with inductor self resonance, and even more curious to see how the lads at EMI dealt with it. I have seen HF ringing/rise on every Pultec inductor I've looked at (Vintage Windings, Cinemag, Carnhill) when in circuit, with boost at full and bandwidth at narrow. Some ring more than others. The problem is most pronounced at 8K, 10K, 12K and 16K. Lower frequencies were not problematic. It took an interstage with high input impedance and a well tuned Zobel to get it under control.
 
AusTex64 said:
I am very interested to hear about the problems you're having with inductor self resonance, and even more curious to see how the lads at EMI dealt with it. I have seen HF ringing/rise on every Pultec inductor I've looked at (Vintage Windings, Cinemag, Carnhill) when in circuit, with boost at full and bandwidth at narrow. Some ring more than others. The problem is most pronounced at 8K, 10K, 12K and 16K. Lower frequencies were not problematic. It took an interstage with high input impedance and a well tuned Zobel to get it under control.

Just to be clear,  are the inductors you tested are for the original Pultec design  rather than mine? What was the Zobel network you used?

Cheers

Ian
 
Yes, inductors for the original Pultec.

Since the Triad HS-29 was unobtainable, I used the Sowter transformers suggested by Drip. That interstage is the 9330. It's 2.5K primary 10K secondary.  The HS-29 is 20K primary 80K secondary, big difference. Also, I started out with the Vintage Windings inductor, which has all sorts of problems. A GroupDIY member suggestd the Carnhill inductor. With no other changes but the inductor, using the Carnhill cut ringing by half. But still could not control the ringing using the 9330. Ended up using UTC A18, which is 15K:80K. With a 220pf 18K Zobel, ringing was controlled. I measured a Pulse Techniques repro (couldn't find an original unit locally to measure) and the Carnhill freq centers and slopes are very, very close to the Pulse Techniques unit.

In the midst of this test, I contacted Sowter about the problem I was having with the 9330. They were very responsive and ended up sending me their new interstage/phase splitter to test, the 1475. It is a fine transformer. I was able to control the ring with it using 330pf 4K Zobel. I could likely improve that Zobel (less loading) if I put more time into it. But by that point I had drilled mounting holes for the A18 in the chassis and was frankly tiring of chasing the issue. But I would not hesitate to build with the 1475 and the Sowter input and output transformers. I have two units. I modified one using UTC A20 and A18, and the new Cinemag S217D replica. The other had the Sowter input, 1475 interstage and Sowter S217D substitute, and it was very difficult to tell them apart. The Sowter iron sounded great in comparison. In fact, had I not already bought the UTC and Cinemag transformers, I would have just replaced the 9330's with the 1475's and called it a day.
 
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/364441-there-hardware-version-abbey-road-presence-box.html Has a picture of the guts... Not sure which module
 
Every time I see this title and especially EMI, I think it's a Radiated Susceptibility spec for EMI testing.  (Of course, every time I'm wrong)
 
ramshackles said:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/364441-there-hardware-version-abbey-road-presence-box.html Has a picture of the guts... Not sure which module

Looks to be the 8026 model whatever that is - apparently part of the Audio Mixing Desk 8100 series whatever that is.. The guts picture is interesting because it looks like you can read the capacitor values. Front panel shows the six frequencies are 0.8KHz,  1.4KHz, 2KHZ,  2.8KHz, 4KHz and 5.6KHz. This should allow the inductor values for each frequency to be calculated. The largest capacitor appears to be 75nF. For 0.8KHz  resonance this needs approximately 500mH of inductance. The relative response graph shows the Q of the resonance is 2 which makes the characteristic impedance of the circuit around 1250 ohms.

This response is sharper than my REDDEQ design which is based on curves plotted form the official EMI plug in. Maybe the 8026 is a later design and users wanted a sharper boost and more frequencies (the RS127 had only 3 frequencies)

Cheers

Ian
 
Interesting that the seller likens it to the RS127 because, as far as I can see from the schematic, there is no resemblance at all.

The first section appears to be a sharp cut off HPF. The inductor turns over at close to 20Hz and the capacitor close to 100Hz. The second section seems to be a variation on this with selectable frequencies. The seller says "This is so cool, it's similar to the EMI RS 127 presence box in that it adds high end to make things sparkle" so either I have it completely wrong or he's telling porkies. I'll do a quick sim to find out.

Thanks for finding this.

Cheers

Ian
 
Hi Ian,

Yeah, just happened to read your post before seeing this on ebay.  Have no idea what his circuit actually does vs what the RS127 does.  More than likely he is trying to up the value of a relatively worthless piece of gear.

Mike
 
Here's its (much bigger) cousin. The real curve bender. Much much respect to the wiring person.

IMG_20140801_142650.jpg



IMG_20140801_142708.jpg



IMG_20140801_142721.jpg



Notice the huge inductors under the rotary switches in the last picture.
 
mjrippe said:
Hi Ian,

Yeah, just happened to read your post before seeing this on ebay.  Have no idea what his circuit actually does vs what the RS127 does.  More than likely he is trying to up the value of a relatively worthless piece of gear.

Mike

I just simulated the first stage. -3dB point is 124Hz. SLope is a gentle 3dB/octave until the inductor kicks in around 20Hz and it increases to 6dB/octave. Definitely no presence boost.

Cheers

Ian
 
noulou said:
Here's its (much bigger) cousin. The real curve bender. Much much respect to the wiring person.
Notice the huge inductors under the rotary switches in the last picture.

I count 8 wafers in each switch and there appears to be gears coupling the switches together mechanically in pairs.

Wiring reminds me of what I saw when I worked at British Aerospace in the late 60s.

Cheers

Ian
 
noulou said:
Here's its (much bigger) cousin. The real curve bender. Much much respect to the wiring person.

IMG_20140801_142650.jpg



IMG_20140801_142708.jpg



IMG_20140801_142721.jpg



Notice the huge inductors under the rotary switches in the last picture.

Oh my god. Look at that  woolly mammoth!
 

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