Feeler: crowdfunding a CNC router.

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Anthon

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
201
Location
Brussels
Don't know where to post this, so why not in brewery...

I was thinking about crowdfunding a project, and helping the DIY community at the same time - and I guess building a CNC router is a perfect opportunity to do so  8)

After I did some part sourcing on internet, and designing in Blender, I believe I can build a very decent precision machine for less than 1500 euro. (approx 90x90 cm working surface) using standard construction parts. So it's much cheaper than buying a finished device.

I have been bitten by the CNC bug, so I'm going to build it with or without the support - but crowdfunding is a good way to help each other  ;D Extra cash + some deadlines will certainly help.

How it works:
You donate any amount you want and you ask what you want to get in return (it's just a feeler, so feel free to make any offer, but be reasonable  ;D )
Once my machine is finished, I'll make the item you want and I send to you.
If after some time I can't complete your item for any reason, I give you your money back.

What I can offer in return:
- anything a CNC machine can make (wood, aluminum or maybe even steel, depends on how well it's going to machine it). You provide the design.
- Tweed style guitar cabinets made out of wood, which I'm already making using traditional tools. Having CNC would make it so much easier.
- possibly steel enclosures, with paintjob and silkscreen. (can't make any promises here).
- plans, manual, where you can order all the parts for building your own CNC (should my design be a success). My design goal is to make a precision CNC router with a minimal amount of custom parts, so DIY build should not be difficult, if you have all the needed information.

I live in Belgium, so the shipment inside the EU won't be expensive.
So if you are interested, let me know! If there will be enough demand, I'll make a kickstarter.

Grtz
Anthon
 
ruffrecords said:
I believe this has been done already.

Cheers

Ian
Click to expand...

Nothing new under the sun - I'm sure it has been done numerous time. But I think the world needs more than 1 CNC machine  :)

okgb said:
Where?  s.. the link  ?  Is there a plan or model for a business after it and it's debts are paid ?
Click to expand...

At this moment, it's just a feeler. I will work out the details, if enough people are interested.
But I'll certainly offer CNC services online, after it's finished (with or without external funding).
Currently, I want to build it in mind of manufacturing guitar cabinets + engraving steel plates.
 
Hi,
I would contribute.

But I think it would be easier if you define amounts and gifts.

Imagine on a band crowdfunding they define 15€ you get the CD plus autographed photo.
35€ you get the CD the Vynil and the ticket for the first show
50€ you get CD, Vynil, ticket and t-shirt

This is an example, but people use this method so they help the contributor in the reasonable amounts to contribute and what they have in return.

In my case I might be interested in some CNC front panels for projects.
How many? I really dont know
Whats reasonable to offer? I really don't know, but if it's more than my local CNC shop or Front Panel Express then I will not be compelled to contribute into somebody else business.

With crowdfunding you will pay the machine in the end anyway, if you don't pay with cash you will pay with your working time making a lot of CNC jobs for other people.
That's totally fine, I'm just pointing that out.

I would expect something like half the price of the other people's offering the same service on the market, for you to get crowdfunding interest.
 
Whoops said:
Hi,
I would contribute.

But I think it would be easier if you define amounts and gifts.

Imagine on a band crowdfunding they define 15€ you get the CD plus autographed photo.
35€ you get the CD the Vynil and the ticket for the first show
50€ you get CD, Vynil, ticket and t-shirt

This is an example, but people use this method so they help the contributor in the reasonable amounts to contribute and what they have in return.

In my case I might be interested in some CNC front panels for projects.
How many? I really dont know
Whats reasonable to offer? I really don't know, but if it's more than my local CNC shop or Front Panel Express then I will not be compelled to contribute into somebody else business.

With crowdfunding you will pay the machine in the end anyway, if you don't pay with cash you will pay with your working time making a lot of CNC jobs for other people.
That's totally fine, I'm just pointing that out.

I would expect something like half the price of the other people's offering the same service on the market, for you to get crowdfunding interest.
Click to expand...

Yes, I need to define amounts/gifts, but that's why I'm making this thread - first I have to know what people might want and something that I can offer at an attractive price and good quality.

CNC machined front panels seems like the most obvious thing people of DIY community would need.
I don't have experience ordering custom CNC front panels, because after seeing the prices, I quickly abandoned the idea (for instance, modushop.biz asks 25euro for drilling, 20 for engraving, 25 for anodizing, not including the panel itself ).
If you could give me an example of something you ordered and the amount you paid, I could see if I can do it at half the price.

Don Audio offers 'standard' front panels for various DIY projects between 50-100 euro depending on the size.
 
Anthon said:
CNC machined front panels seems like the most obvious thing people of DIY community would need.

Don Audio offers 'standard' front panels for various DIY projects between 50-100 euro depending on the size.
Click to expand...

Front panels and Back panels also. Back Panels are even more difficult to cut and drill than front panels, as you have the big XLR holes a the square IEC connector. So that would be a good candidate for CNC.
Also engraving...

Check Front Panel Express prices
 
Whoops said:
Front panels and Back panels also. Back Panels are even more difficult to cut and drill than front panels, as you have the big XLR holes a the square IEC connector. So that would be a good candidate for CNC.
Also engraving...

Check Front Panel Express prices
Click to expand...

Yes, I know the pain of cutting out a square hole by hand  ::)
But the back panel usually needs to be matched to the chassis, which involves bending, matching paintjob etc. If it's a standard part I can order from a large supplier, then it's doable. Front panels can be cut out of plain aluminum plate and then anodized.

I contacted a local metal supplier, and they sell large raw aluminum plates at a very reasonable price. About 30 euro for 3mm per square meter and 45 euro for 4mm (without VAT).
For instance, a square meter plate would be enough for making up to 36x  1u 19inch panels. So if I can get enough people interested, I can make it relatively cheap.
 
Anthon said:
Yes, I know the pain of cutting out a square hole by hand  ::)
But the back panel usually needs to be matched to the chassis, which involves bending, matching paintjob etc.
Click to expand...

Back panels most of the time don't need finishing the bare aluminum is fine. Dont know if I understood the bending, it's just a straight piece of metal, small than the front panel.


The prices you got locally are good.
;)
 
Whoops said:
Back panels most of the time don't need finishing the bare aluminum is fine. Dont know if I understood the bending, it's just a straight piece of metal, small than the front panel.


The prices you got locally are good.
;)
Click to expand...

The 19inch enclosures I used for my projects have a particular shape, that require bending and can not be replicated on a CNC.
But if it's just a flat piece, then it's not a problem.

Yes, the raw materials are pretty cheap, so if I can get enough demand, the price will be quite good. Especially if no anodizing is needed.

Let's say I'll make them for 50% of the commercial price to make it attractive.
For instance, modushop.biz asks 12e for the blank plate + 25e for drilling + 20 for engraving + 25 for anodizing. Total for a 2u engraved anodized plate is 82 euro, so I should ask 40. (or 30 euro without anodizing).
So to fully fund my project I to sell about 40 custom panels.

I'll check out what Frontpanel express asks for their custom panels later.

I could also offer standard panels, for those who don't want to bother designing one themselves. (for instance, 2u Pultec EQ).
 
Anthon said:
I contacted a local metal supplier, and they sell large raw aluminum plates at a very reasonable price. About 30 euro for 3mm per square meter and 45 euro for 4mm (without VAT).
Click to expand...
What grade of aluminium is it? Beware that some grades are difficult to mill; metal shops prefer punching or laser-cutting for AL.
AlCuMg is my favorite for milling, but doesn't take anodization.
Check here
http://www.metaux-detail.com/pdf/caracteristique/PROPRIETESPHYSIQUESDESALUMINIUM.pdf
 
Whoops said:
I guess that could work as a guideline yes.

If you are able to implement it, it's a really nice way of fund your CNC ventures.
Click to expand...

Yes, sounds like a plan.

If you are interested, I can notify you when I'm ready to start crowdfunding campaign (after I have finished the design of the CNC, calculated exact costs etc)
I will probably give more discount if you order more (3 + 1 for free for example).

abbey road d enfer said:
What grade of aluminium is it? Beware that some grades are difficult to mill; metal shops prefer punching or laser-cutting for AL.
AlCuMg is my favorite for milling, but doesn't take anodization.
Check here
http://www.metaux-detail.com/pdf/caracteristique/PROPRIETESPHYSIQUESDESALUMINIUM.pdf
Click to expand...

I asked what composition it is, but they don't know  ::)
I guess I'll have to buy a sample and try it out.
 
Anthon said:
After I did some part sourcing on internet, and designing in Blender, I believe I can build a very decent precision machine for less than 1500 euro. (approx 90x90 cm working surface) using standard construction parts.

So it's much cheaper than buying a finished device.
Click to expand...

Not to come out negative, but:

Do you have experience in dimensioning, building (or even using) precision CNC? That is, do you have a clear idea about where to "cut the cake"?

I assure you, the market these days is so flooded with machinery and inexpensive parts that you would be extremely hard pressed to come up with anything better/cheaper than what's already done. And done to perfection, both in pricing and yield. That is, unless you somehow cut the cake in a wholly new way.

But this requires you to actually and in-depth know what you are doing, and that you already did (i.e. actually built irl) several designs from bottom up...

So the questions you must ask yourself (being devil's advocate here) are: What makes you think you could do better than a relatively mature community already did? Are you really aware how extremely far there is from a good-looking cad drawing to a working tool? Do you realize how much implicit trust in your abilities and talent you are asking for when you ask strangers to fund this: Not for production of a known-working unit (which can be risky enough), but a prototype of a mere dream?
< /devilmode >

That said, I understand your motivation - I built my first cnc-engraver from scratch (using scrap/dumpster parts), and it was huge fun and a fantastic learning rollercoaster. In the end, my most important finding was that the real mechanical world is much deeper and more complex than what meets the untrained eye.

And I concluded that even the crappiest-looking readymade machine out in the market was a much better adaptation time/price/function-wise than anything I could come up with at my limited mechanical stage. This was around 2000, and although I realize that access to parts is a lot simpler today (and cheaper), the basic properties of mechanical complexity remains unchanged.

So unless you really need some specific function, I would really recommend that you buy and possibly modify an already working design.

Jakob E.

Edit: Shouldn't this be in the "Machine Shop" section?
 
gyraf said:
Not to come out negative, but:

Do you have experience in dimensioning, building (or even using) precision CNC? That is, do you have a clear idea about where to "cut the cake"?

I assure you, the market these days is so flooded with machinery and inexpensive parts that you would be extremely hard pressed to come up with anything better/cheaper than what's already done. And done to perfection, both in pricing and yield. That is, unless you somehow cut the cake in a wholly new way.

But this requires you to actually and in-depth know what you are doing, and that you already did (i.e. actually built irl) several designs from bottom up...

So the questions you must ask yourself (being devil's advocate here) are: What makes you think you could do better than a relatively mature community already did? Are you really aware how extremely far there is from a good-looking cad drawing to a working tool? Do you realize how much implicit trust in your abilities and talent you are asking for when you ask strangers to fund this: Not for production of a known-working unit (which can be risky enough), but a prototype of a mere dream?
< /devilmode >

That said, I understand your motivation - I built my first cnc-engraver from scratch (using scrap/dumpster parts), and it was huge fun and a fantastic learning rollercoaster. In the end, my most important finding was that the real mechanical world is much deeper and more complex than what meets the untrained eye.

And I concluded that even the crappiest-looking readymade machine out in the market was a much better adaptation time/price/function-wise than anything I could come up with at my limited mechanical stage. This was around 2000, and although I realize that access to parts is a lot simpler today (and cheaper), the basic properties of mechanical complexity remains unchanged.

So unless you really need some specific function, I would really recommend that you buy and possibly modify an already working design.

Jakob E.

Edit: Shouldn't this be in the "Machine Shop" section?
Click to expand...

There was someone who wanted to make a 10$ potato salad on kickstarter, and received 55 000$ as crowd funding.  ::) Sure it's like winning a lotery, but just to say funding a CNC is not the craziest idea that could get funded.
I do realize about everything you just said.

I have experience in building, and I know if you start out with scrap or inferior parts, then you end up wasting to much time/effort and sacrificing quality, and probably overpaying also.
I already have a bunch of 4x8 cm aluminum profiles lying around, used for automation - which I received as a contribution from a family member (never used, they bought it to build something years ago but never actually went for it ), so this going to save me couple of hundreds of euro's. I also have access to local fab lab to machine some of the custom parts I'm going to need. Besides, I have a workshop of my own with good benchdrill, mitre saws, router, sanders etc - I'm quite a handy man. CNC would be a nice addition to it.
I don't want to reinvent the bicycle. For my design, I'm mostly ripping off other designs I see on the web. I just modifying it a bit to be able to use as much standard parts as possible (without extra cutting or machining), but even if I end up deciding to go for custom parts, this won't be a problem.

And I'm not going to start a fund campaign before I have worked everything out.

It's just a feeler, an idea (that's why I'm not posting it in machine shop) - like I said, if I see no interest, then I'm just going to build it myself with my own money. But then nobody gets a cheap panel  ;D
 
Anthon said:
I was thinking about crowdfunding a project, and helping the DIY community at the same time - and I guess building a CNC router is a perfect opportunity to do so  8)

After I did some part sourcing on internet, and designing in Blender, I believe I can build a very decent precision machine for less than 1500 euro. (approx 90x90 cm working surface) using standard construction parts. So it's much cheaper than buying a finished device.
Click to expand...

I'm very interested in "inexpensive" milling capability, mainly for enclosure front and rear panels. The biggest thing would be a 19" rack panel, but I like those Hammond extrusions, so figure things maybe 2" high by 6" wide.

I put "inexpensive" in quotes because I realize that inexpensive is at cross purposes with precision. The CNC mill needs to have documented precision, and it needs to be repeatable. And that's only part of it, as you need to implement the electronics which translates the design into movement.

Ian Bell (ruffrecords) started a thread about an inexpensive CNC machine. Read it here.

NB: I'm an EE, so I ask our ME to help me with the big vertical mill in the shop at our office. And by that, I mean, "Hey, Jim, help me set this up ..." and then he says, "Oh, just give it to me."
 
For onsey-twosey there are service companies, but most are not friendly for low volume jobs. Last metal job I ran was 250 pcs, and that wasn't cheap.

The modern technology for cutting metal is high pressure water, clearly too expensive for DIY.

The PIA for large metal vendors is programming, but perhaps that can be addressed with friendlier CAD software to reduce that hurdle (like emachineshop?).

JR

PS: I miss working at Peavey when I could just visit the machine shop and get Sam to make whatever I needed. I operated lathes and milling machines as a young puke working two summer vacations during HS, in a machine shop (in fact illegally since I was younger than 18YO). My older brother actually owned his own Bridgeport Milling machine, but he was a mechanical engineer and big on automotive DIY. 
 
JohnRoberts said:
The modern technology for cutting metal is high pressure water, clearly too expensive for DIY.
Click to expand...
Are you positive? Here, there is still a lot of CNC punching machines that operate less than optimally (I mean not more than 8hrs/day). In addition, several metal shops have laser-cutting machines that are also largely unemployed; it used to be that laser was for specific tasks that punch could not do well (curves, reentrant contours) and more expensive on a per hour basis. Now I get the laser at the same cost as punch.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
Are you positive? Here, there is still a lot of CNC punching machines that operate less than optimally (I mean not more than 8hrs/day). In addition, several metal shops have laser-cutting machines that are also largely unemployed; it used to be that laser was for specific tasks that punch could not do well (curves, reentrant contours) and more expensive on a per hour basis. Now I get the laser at the same cost as punch.
Click to expand...
The next-next thing is additive, using 3D printers that deposit metal. These are not cheap enough for wide use but already used for prototypes in some industries (I think Jay Leno has one for making obsolete car parts).

When I was designing the bottom metal for my tuner several years ago I was thinking in terms of using a NC punch to step and repeat small punches to make slots, because that was the technology I was familiar with from years working at Peavey.

attachment.php


Talking to the metal vendor I used for my first generation metal, they told me forget about punching and just gave me some minimum dimensions to deal with.

Because I could, I machined a big R into the speaker grill, I even added a tiny guide hole for the mic PCB indexing tab, a dimension too small to punch holes that close together, but with water machining no problemo..

This next-next technology is not really a concern for DIY.  I bet used Bridgeport Mills are selling cheaper these days (if you have the room and a strong back.)

JR
 
Andy Peters said:
I'm very interested in "inexpensive" milling capability, mainly for enclosure front and rear panels. The biggest thing would be a 19" rack panel, but I like those Hammond extrusions, so figure things maybe 2" high by 6" wide.

I put "inexpensive" in quotes because I realize that inexpensive is at cross purposes with precision. The CNC mill needs to have documented precision, and it needs to be repeatable. And that's only part of it, as you need to implement the electronics which translates the design into movement.

Ian Bell (ruffrecords) started a thread about an inexpensive CNC machine. Read it here.

NB: I'm an EE, so I ask our ME to help me with the big vertical mill in the shop at our office. And by that, I mean, "Hey, Jim, help me set this up ..." and then he says, "Oh, just give it to me."
Click to expand...

What would you consider 'inexpensive'?
Inexpensive doesn't necessarily means less precision - it depends on where you do the budget cuts.

I checked out cheaper machines, but I need a CNC that can route medium sized pieces of wood  (at least 80x80cm working area), because I'm building guitar cabinets as a means of financing my hobby.
Also, it has to be precise enough for engraving words on panels.
So something like 3020T is not a option, too small for my needs.
I would need something like Probotix Comet (I'm actually just ripping it off for my design, seems pretty straightforward).
 

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