Where to Put Tape Sat in Chain

Hi, this probably a stupid question, but I DIY'ed a nice tape sat module from Sound Skulptor. I've tried putting it in the chain like this:

Mic-->Preamp-->Tape Sat-->AD Converter-->DAW.

I can hardly put any signal into the tape sat because it distorts big time. I can't crank the input past 2 (out of 10) on the tape sat unit, or the red clipping LEDs come on and it sounds distorted. Assuming I built it correctly - and I do believe I did - would it make more sense to go

Mic-->Tape Sat-->Preamp-->AD Converter-->DAW

I know then I'm printing the tape sat to the file, but at lower levels it's pleasant and I do think I'll want it. Then the tape sat is acting a bit like a preamp in this case?

Or finally would I be best off

Mic-->Preamp-->AD Converter-->DAW-->Tape Sat on Effects send

I'm not in my studio at the moment to try out all the different configs, and sorry if it's a stupid question. But it's a lovely tape sat unit, and I'm very disappointed I can't crank the input beyond 2 or it clips on its LEDs and in the sound. But it's probably how I'm utilizing it.

Thanks for thoughts

Mike

This is all about proper gain staging. Your first chain seems right for me. Perhaps you need attenuation after your mic pre, or lower the mic pres gain to turn up the saturators gain more.
The next question is, why not leaving the saturators gain at one when it brings the desired effect?
Working with analog gear a little more you will find out that a lot depends on the single gain settings to get the desired effect.
I often chain NV73, 1176, LA2A  and/or Fatso. I am hitting the daw between -12 and - 18 dBs. Each of the devices distorts in a typical way. So gain structure is the key.

Cheers.

Thank-you Bassniac. I guess it's obvious to reduce the pre's gain prior to the tape sat. I'll try it. I seemed to still have the problem even when running the tape sat as an effect send however. Levels don't change much when bypassing the tape sat so I figured I had it set correctly level wise. I still get distortion very easily.

I'll do some more experiments.

If anyone has had issues like this I'd like to hear how you solved them.

Thx,

Mike

At what dB input level it starts to distort?
If at +6dB, okay turn down preamp gain, if at -16dB there´s something wrong...

I'll experiment in the studio and let you guys know.

Which version of the tape sat do you have? I`ve just built up 4 of the ts-500, and they work beautifully with (high level) line sources. It is a line level device, so should probably not be used between mic and preamp. First chain is the one to go (basicly anything after the pre).

The Red clip light is calibrated by you. It should not clip at the input on 2; ofcourse as long as you`re not overloading it from the previous processor. I don`t have any measuring equipment here so can`t really test what it can take; however, I am running my octatrack/elektron boxes into it (they are line level, probably outputting somewhere between 10-18 dbu) and they work very comfortable in this setup. I am inclined to think there is something wrong with your unit!

fragletrollet said:

Which version of the tape sat do you have? I`ve just built up 4 of the ts-500, and they work beautifully with (high level) line sources. It is a line level device, so should probably not be used between mic and preamp. First chain is the one to go (basicly anything after the pre).

The Red clip light is calibrated by you. It should not clip at the input on 2; ofcourse as long as you`re not overloading it from the previous processor. I don`t have any measuring equipment here so can`t really test what it can take; however, I am running my octatrack/elektron boxes into it (they are line level, probably outputting somewhere between 10-18 dbu) and they work very comfortable in this setup. I am inclined to think there is something wrong with your unit!

Click to expand...

Thanks. I built 2 of the original STS units. Was careful. I also calibrated them exactly as stated. So I know something is wrong.  I will do some more experiments and let you know.

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

Bassniac said:

This is all about proper gain staging. Your first chain seems right for me. Perhaps you need attenuation after your mic pre, or lower the mic pres gain to turn up the saturators gain more.
The next question is, why not leaving the saturators gain at one when it brings the desired effect?
Working with analog gear a little more you will find out that a lot depends on the single gain settings to get the desired effect.
I often chain NV73, 1176, LA2A  and/or Fatso. I am hitting the daw between -12 and - 18 dBs. Each of the devices distorts in a typical way. So gain structure is the key.

Cheers.

Click to expand...

This may be a day late and a dollar short and a little off topic, but specific to your post here...what makes you want to go 1073/1176/LA2A in that specific order? I have the same chain for vocals and recently received a WA76 and was thinking of doing the 73/2A/76 because I thought maybe the way the optical comp gets hit first might be a nicer sound, but honestly I don't know and have not experimented much. I was just curious why you like going that way in particular

In the tape recorder.

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

In the tape recorder.

Cheers

Ian

Click to expand...

AR AR!

Thanks guys for the thoughts. Yes of course it makes perfect sense; I'll need to verify gain staging better and maybe that will solve it. There is something wrong if the unit distorts at low input levels, and low gain, however. I'll try to report back here after further testing.

Thanks again,

Mike

Phrazemaster said:

AR AR!

Click to expand...

My reply wasn't entirely facetious. I visited many London studios in the 70s when I was at Neve, The combination of Neve class A desk, Studer multi-tracks, Tannoy Monitor Golds and Dolby A has to be heard to be believed. Nothing in the digital age comes close .

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

My reply wasn't entirely facetious. I visited many London studios in the 70s when I was at Neve, The combination of Neve class A desk, Studer multi-tracks, Tannoy Monitor Golds and Dolby A has to be heard to be believed. Nothing in the digital age comes close .

Cheers

Ian

Click to expand...

I can only imagine. I'm sure these hardware emulation tape sat units are good, but I'm also sure nothing compares to the real thing. How cool you got to see and experience these units!

Phrazemaster said:

I can only imagine. I'm sure these hardware emulation tape sat units are good, but I'm also sure nothing compares to the real thing. How cool you got to see and experience these units!

Click to expand...

Yes, it was beautiful. I remember at The Who's Ramport Studios hearing the original master tape of 'The Boys Are Back In Town' through the original Helios they had there at the time. I went home and played my copy on my 'Hi-Fi' and boy was it disappointing. I didn't listen to a Hi-Fi from then until CDs started to appear. The only way I got close was making my own recordings of bands direct to tape which I did for many years making demo tapes for local bands.

Cheers

Ian

Wow. I'm always amazed how different my mixes sound through my monitors through my DAW with all tracks, vs compressed down to stereo. I suppose if I was any good they would sound more alike, but aha, I rather like making the equipment rather than using it. Learning all the ins/outs of mixing and tracking always seems like such a chore...

I managed to pick up two Dolby 361's a few years ago,complete with A and SR cards ,70 euros the pair I got em for.
The quality of the engineering is astonishing ,chunky mu metal sheiled input tx's ,really good psu and an output transformer nearly the size of a clenched fist . The later blackfaced units ,which were transformerless wernt a patch on the original.
Dolby works great on sources with lots of dynamics ,vocals especially and drums .
During my time in pro recording circles ,SR was the thing ,adds a nice polish to the sound too.
Im also looking for a thing called Dolby cat43 ,it basically turns your dolby A rack into a single ended (ie no decode nessesary)multiband compressor/expander .As far as I know it just allows you to vary the thresholds at which the compression or expansion kicks in . Also possible to use the dolby unit as a preamp with Nr out, 600 or 10k input switchable and  mini preset gain pots behind the removable front panel .If I want to give a signal the full tape treatment  I have a Studer C37 ,easily upto 2 inch 16 track quality albeit mono . Its possible with automation to pass a master mix through in two seperate takes although I havent tried that yet.