Hammond B3, percussion circuit problem

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thekid777

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
455
Location
France
Hi,
I have a problem in the percussion circuit and can't find it.
What would you suggest as testing procedure to be able to find what is happening?
Attached is the schematic of the percussions.
I have to record this week with the organ and I'm in huge hurry!! :(
Many thanks!!
 
are the switches in working order?  any broken wires or missoldered wires?I have the complete b3 service manual, not sure if you need a copy but I have it in PDF if you want. I would post it here but the file size is too large
 
> a problem

Yes, say what problem. Smokes? Buzz? Steals your lover? Plays Waltz when you hit Salsa?

Are there any voltages in there? Voltages do not tell all, but they reduce the possibilities.
 
PRR said:
Yes, say what problem. Smokes? Buzz? Steals your lover? Plays Waltz when you hit Salsa?

Ahah fantastic, always the right word PRR!

By the way, he's right, you should describe your problem to get some advices
 
Sure! ;) Indeed I forgot to describe what's happening!
The switches are working, all  wires seems ok.
When I put percussion "ON" without any drawbars I  hear something like a keyclick at very low level
and it seems to be somewhat altered when I change the percussion settings.
The K terminal give me 30VDC and when I press a key (with perc ON) I see 0VDC
which seems normal.
- all new tubes
- C4, C10, C31, C13, C16, C23, C28 new 
- can capacitors new.
-R7, R8, R19, R20 new

Many thanks for your help
 
thekid777 said:
Sure! ;) Indeed I forgot to describe what's happening!
The switches are working, all  wires seems ok.
When I put percussion "ON" without any drawbars I  hear something like a keyclick at very low level
and it seems to be somewhat altered when I change the percussion settings.
The K terminal give me 30VDC and when I press a key (with perc ON) I see 0VDC
which seems normal.
- all new tubes
- C4, C10, C31, C13, C16, C23, C28 new 
- can capacitors new.
-R7, R8, R19, R20 new

Many thanks for your help

Been a while since I touched a b3 but that sounds normal.
 
Did you console the oracle known as google?

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/PercussionTroubleshooting

Troubleshooting

The percussion gate is triggered by grounding the K terminal on the preamp. The ground comes to this terminal from the 1' busbar (white wire) through the percussion switch. Our old friend metal migration (ZincDendrites) is almost always the cause of percussion problems. This can be easily verified by measuring the voltage on the K terminal of your preamp (blue wire) with the percussion on and the B preset selected. With no keys depressed you should see a positive voltage of 25 to 30 volts. This should go to 0 when any key is pressed. If the voltage is very low or missing, the switch is the problem. Cleaning is the proper cure.

Select the B preset, turn the percussion to ON, NORMAL, SLOW, SECOND.
Measure the voltage on the K terminal with no keys pressed. It should read 25 to 30 volts.
Now press any upper key and the reading should go to 0.
If the voltage on the K terminal seems to be behaving itself, skip the remainder of this section, and see the Trouble in the Preamp section below.

If little (less than 20 volts or so) or no voltage appears at K with no keys pressed, you probably have a short (see ZincDendrites) most likely located either in the percussion switch assembly, or in the upper manual.

Cancel the upper manual presets (but leave the percussion switch in the on position).
If that gives you 25 to 30 volts on the K terminal, you (probably) have a short in the upper manual. Skip the rest of this section.

Turn the percussion ON/OFF switch to OFF.
If you still have too low a voltage on the K terminal: Turn the organ off. Unsolder the blue wire from the K terminal, and the red wire from the M terminal of the AO-28. Turn the organ back on.
If you still have too low a voltage on K, you have a strange problem in the preamp.

Otherwise, you have a short most likely in the percussion switches, but also possibly in the upper manual (associated with the B preset). To further narrow down the location of the short:

Turn percussion back on. Reconnect the wires to the K and M terminals (if you had disconnected them).
(Sanity check: you should be back to having low voltage on K.)
Unsolder one of the white wires going to the left-most terminal of the ResistorPanel.
If you still have 0 volts on K, there is a short in the percussion switches. Otherwise the short is in the upper manual.

To Clean the Percussion Switch Assembly

See Zapping below for an easier (but not 100% reliable) alternative to physically cleaning the percussion switches.

Remove the music rack, the two large screws and two wood screws which secure the drawbar base, place heavy paper (or thin carboard) at either end to avoid scratches and raise the drawbar base 4 to 5 inches. (See also HowToRaiseTheManuals.)
Remove the two screws from the percussion switch cover and remove it. Spray the interior of the percussion switch housing and contacts with a good non-residual cleaner and retest to see if it works.
As only about 1/2 of the contacts are reachable from the back of the switch, it may be necessary to dismantle the entire switch to get results. This is not a job for the faint of heart. Many foul words have been uttered during re-assembly. Some will advise applying copius amounts of D.C. to burn the ofending bits into oblivion. I don't recommend this procedure as severe damage to many components may occur.
Shorts in the Upper Manual

If you have the time, ability and patience, and you are sure that you've narrowed the problem down to a short in the upper manual, the best next step is probably to perform a BusbarLubeJob on the upper manual. (But, be warned: there's no guarantee that this will fix the problem.)

See also ShortsInTheManual.

Zapping:

The quick fix (which also may or may not work) is flashing or ManualZapping. You can zap either the manual or the percussion switches, or both.

Warning: Improper (or even proper) zapping can do permanent damage to your organ! Make sure you completely understand what you are doing before proceding. Also, please read ManualZapping for further comments.

You have several choices of where to zap:

To zap the upper manual assembly, unsolder the white wire from the B preset bundle at the ResistorPanel. Select the B preset, and zap between the white wire and the manual chassis (ground). This will flash away dendrites only in the manual assembly and will not affect any dendrites that might be in the percussion switches.
Unsolder the blue wire from the K terminal on the preamp. Rock the percussion switches (all four) toward the player and flash between the blue wire and ground (the preamp chassis). Rock the percussion switches away from the player, and flash again between the blue wire and ground.
It can also be beneficial to flash the other percussion-related wires on the preamp terminals. In particular, in one case where the percussion disappeared only when the decay was set to "slow," flashing the H, J, M, and N wires (unsoldered) with the switches in both positions solved the problem.
(Others can elaborate here on more choices).
Before you zap, you may want to check with a (good-quality) ohmmeter to make sure there is indeed a dendrite short. (The ZincDendrite shorts typically have resistances a few hundreds of ohms.) If you see a short of very low resistance, you may want to rethink your decision to zap until you've figured out more about what's causing the short.

After you've checked the resistance of the short, take a nine volt "transistor radio" battery (or two, in series), and hook it up across the short for a couple of seconds. Check the resistance again. If you now see a open circuit, rejoice!

If the short is still there, but the resistance has changed (either higher or lower) that's a good sign. Zap again (and again and again, if need be.)

If the resistance of the short isn't changing, I'd try zapping one or two more times, but your prospects are less promising. If you have used only one battery, try two, in series. Sometimes one is not enough, but two are.

Trouble in the Preamp

If the voltage on the K terminal seems to be behaving correctly (high except for when a key is depressed), but your Percussion still doesn't percuss, the trouble is probably in the pre-amp.

Some things to try:

Try adjusting the Percussion Cut-Off potentiometer on the back of the preamp. This probably isn't the root of your troubles, but it's easy to check. You never know if some screw-ball might have mucked it up.
Try swapping/checking the tubes in the percussion circuit. In an AO-28, these are: V5, V6 and V7. (V5 and V6 are are 6C4's; V7 is a 12AU7.) [In an AO-29, the tubes of interest are V7, V8, and V9.]
If you don't have any spare tubes on hand, you can try swapping V5 and V6 [V7 and V8 in an AO-29]. This probably won't fix your problem (since you'll still have a bad tube) --- but if the symptoms change, you can be pretty sure that one or both of the swapped tubes is no good.
If the tubes aren't the problem, you'll have to dig deeper. Reportedly, C31 is sometimes the culprit, but really, it could be anything in the percussion circuit.
 
pucho812 said:

Yes, quite a lot already but as I didnt find any solutions I asked here.
I'm in this situation:

"Trouble in the Preamp

If the voltage on the K terminal seems to be behaving correctly (high except for when a key is depressed), but your Percussion still doesn't percuss, the trouble is probably in the pre-amp.

Some things to try:

    Try adjusting the Percussion Cut-Off potentiometer on the back of the preamp. This probably isn't the root of your troubles, but it's easy to check. You never know if some screw-ball might have mucked it up. DONE
    Try swapping/checking the tubes in the percussion circuit. In an AO-28, these are: V5, V6 and V7. (V5 and V6 are are 6C4's; V7 is a 12AU7.) [In an AO-29, the tubes of interest are V7, V8, and V9.] DONE

    If you don't have any spare tubes on hand, you can try swapping V5 and V6 [V7 and V8 in an AO-29]. This probably won't fix your problem (since you'll still have a bad tube) --- but if the symptoms change, you can be pretty sure that one or both of the swapped tubes is no good. DONE

If the tubes aren't the problem, you'll have to dig deeper. Reportedly, C31 is sometimes the culprit, but really, it could be anything in the percussion circuit
."


I'm in this situation:  C31 is sometimes the culprit, but really, it could be anything in the percussion circuit
 
thekid777 said:
really, it could be anything in the percussion circuit[/color]
So you need to apply the standard troubleshooting method: "Trace The Signal". Signal at "H" is very low, so may be difficult to visualize/eavesdrop, but signal at the secondary of T4 is measurable, then you may trace the signal to plate of V5, and so on till point P.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
So you need to apply the standard troubleshooting method: "Trace The Signal". Signal at "H" is very low, so may be difficult to visualize/eavesdrop, but signal at the secondary of T4 is measurable, then you may trace the signal to plate of V5, and so on till point P.

I'm a little scared to do it as there's quite high voltage inside.
How would you do it? oscilloscope to measure VAC? could you please explain me?
I do have a oscilloscope and fluke DMM.
Thanks
 
thekid777 said:
I'm a little scared to do it as there's quite high voltage inside.
How would you do it? oscilloscope to measure VAC? could you please explain me?
I do have a oscilloscope and fluke DMM.
Thanks
You can use an oscilloscope to trace signal; make sure it is set in AC mode.
I don't have the voltage charts for B3, but the L100 series indicate about 7-8mV at the secondary of T4, and a few hundred mV at teh plate of the 1st tube.
Alternatively, you could use an amplifier to trace signal audibly; typically a guitar amp: use a jack cord, ground the sleeve to the organ chassis wire a piece of wire and touch the points where you want to trace signal with the tip of the jack via a capacitor (10nF 400V). Turn the volume down before touching then turn it up; failure to do so may damage your amp AND your ears.
Play a single note when testing so teh signal looks more or less like a sinwave. Playing several notes gives an illegible graph.
 
Many thanks Abbey road d'enfer for your help.
Will try this (I don't have the capacitor to do it now)
Could you please explain to a newbie how I could test correctly each transformers?
I suspect these as well as the wires have moisture on them.
 
thekid777 said:
Many thanks Abbey road d'enfer for your help.
Will try this (I don't have the capacitor to do it now)
Could you please explain to a newbie how I could test correctly each transformers?
I suspect these as well as the wires have moisture on them.
There should be a measurable signal at the secondary when voltage is applied to the primary.
You may first measure the DC resistance - should not be more than 1k; caveat: turn the organ off and let it rest for a couple of minutes before doing that!
You may also measure the DC voltage at the plates; significant deviation from nominal 200V could be a sign of damaged primary.
 

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