tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 05:03:17 PM »
20 million low income people gaining access to subsidized health care (very cheap)?
Increasing taxes on incomes >$250k to pay for it?
A good friend of mine has much needed health care on the ACA for like $100 a month.

Do you think Trump & Republicans are going to do things you want?

They're currently destroying Obamacare, which is exactly what I want. It's a necessary step on the way to single payer, that Obamacare goes, the quicker the better. They'll likely make such a hackjob of it, people will hate them for decades.

Fine.

If they're able to draw out the agony for longer than expected, even better.

Yesterday Paul Ryan proudly announced increased health care tax credits for the elderly, in the republicans' bill.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:09:44 PM by tands »


dmp

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2017, 05:32:50 PM »
They're currently destroying Obamacare, which is exactly what I want. It's a necessary step on the way to single payer, that Obamacare goes, the quicker the better. They'll likely make such a hackjob of it, people will hate them for decades.
Fine.
If they're able to draw out the agony for longer than expected, even better.
Paul Ryan proudly announced increased health care tax credits for the elderly in the bill.

I doubt this will work out but it's hard to predict the future.

Do you also want them to destroy the environmental protections, public education, Social Security, unemployment, worker's rights, food assistance for the very poor, regulations promoting transparency from business,  etc etc, all in the hope that if it gets REALLY, REALLY bad then maybe they will come around to fix it?



tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2017, 05:51:35 PM »
Don't get confused, and don't try to pretend Obamacare is like any of that. It's a sellout of Americans to corporate health care and insurance interests, as I informed you above.

dmp

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2017, 06:04:51 PM »
 Look at Trump's proposed budget. Large funding cuts. It's not getting confused to ask why your plan will work for health care but not all these other issues.

Anybody can learn what the ACA really was  -  it had pros and cons. 
The ACA raised taxes on the very wealthy to pay for health insurance for the poor.
Health care became WAY more affordable for the poor with the ACA due to subsidies.
People with pre existing conditions got access to health care when previously they were denied coverage by insurance companies.
I've agreed that it was imperfect, particularly for controlling overall health care costs. 

Why do you personally hate it so strongly? Did your health costs go up or something? Or did you dislike the government telling you to get health insurance?

tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 09:07:24 PM »
Oh, you're running the lesser-of-two-evils thing on me.

No, this has nothing to do with my personal situation. I hate it on principle, because the state requires us to buy a product from a for-profit entity, the definition of fascism. None of them have the right.

 I'm not afraid of republicans. It was Obama and the democrats who proposed cutting Social Security via chained CPI, and the republicans in congress who wouldn't go along with it. Also, TPP was my top priority this past election, and Trump killed it. The loser candidate Hillary Clinton would have happily (cackle cackle) signed it into law, turning all our laws and our sovereignty over to multinational corporations. Seems to me, the republican cuts will come down hardest on people who supported Clinton over Bernie, who would have beat Trump.

Well now, maybe that'll wise them up. Maybe not.  Sad!

Quote
There is no means of human communication which may not also be a means of deliberate propaganda, because propaganda is simply the establishing of a reciprocal understanding between an individual and a group   -Edward Beignet

https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/841759377312874497
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 11:50:27 PM by tands »

Phrazemaster

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2017, 11:26:00 PM »
The fact of the matter is that the hard-working middle class is ***ked no matter who is running the show, or what side of the aisle they reside on. If you're self-employed, it's even worse.  Obamacare was not affordable except for the people who mostly did not contribute to it ( or anything, for that matter ) and the current administration's final offering will be no better, probably worse. 
But please don't let this discussion end up as a he said/she said rant divided along party lines. Blue and Red are two sides of the same coin.
The Govt.  cannot continue to steal from Peter to pay for Paul, no matter what it is that's being purchased. Unfortunately, the only thing the Govt. is interested in buying is votes.
The only fair system would be a Flat Tax, where everyone, regardless of income, pays the exact same percentage.
And a Value-Added Tax ( VAT ) the proceeds of which are  designated strictly to Health Care.
Sadly, never happen here in the USA because there is too much class-warfare, greed and material envy. The Greatness of this Country left the building a long time ago and Trump, nor anyone else, won't be able to bring it back no matter what they promise.
You always have a balanced viewpoint. I couldn't agree more about the flat tax. "Progressive taxation" is such a joke. My gf got a raise at her job, but the increased taxes made her suddenly ineligible for food stamps, which she desperately needed at the time. That $.50/hour raise cost her dearly.

If we are going to solve this healthcare issue, we absolutely must look at costs. There is no reason a doctor should be making half a million dollars, while his child is going to a teacher making $30k. Something is terribly wrong with this system.

Just read that rapper The Chance got half a mil from apple for exclusive rights to distribute his new album for 2 weeks. Half a mil from someone who is a good rhymer. I'm not saying he's not talented - I'm saying our society is completely f***d in the economics department.

I'm terribly disappointed the big T thinks his new plan is any better than the old. By all accounts, it's much worse.
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ksor

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 05:32:37 AM »
As a dane - where we ALL for free can go to the hospital, even the homeless man on the street - I simply DON'T understand what the mass of ordinairy people have against that "Obamacare" !

I think every aspect af american politics shows that the rich people run the "show" - do you think "Obamacare" is just another trick to get money from the poorest to the richest ?

Yes, pharma and insurance companies will gain on that but I think many people will too have a better and more secure life.

I DON'T consider any of the members of this forum belonging to the richest part of US publulation - in the long run all members here will gain of this.
Look around in your society and find other enemies than your neighbor - all the people behind black windows in big limos, in big powerboats, in big appartments on top of big towers - they are the enemies of the mass of people - focus on them instead !

... and of cause they try to tell you another story to get you to focus elsewhere !

... and how they have succeded ... Gabriel, blow your horn !

That fool from the news during the presidential campagne saying:  "... he's just my kind of man !  " - how can he believe Trump has ANITHING good to do for him ?

Take a look here to get a real good analyzis of the situation in the US right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3wa_xYL88U
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 09:22:38 AM by ksor »
KSor, Aarhus
Denmark
Skype: keldsor

tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2017, 01:02:43 PM »
Quote
I think every aspect af american politics shows that the rich people run the "show" - do you think "Obamacare" is just another trick to get money from the poorest to the richest ?

Hi guy, did you read the 2000 words detailing Obamacare's creation and who wrote it, with who's help, I just posted last page? Go back and do that if not. There are google links so you can inform yourself further, if needed.

America is a capitalist hellscape. I live here. As a Dane, I don't expect you understand what that means. We are buried in parasites (like Obama, congress, various sh*ts in suits and pantsuits) trying to suck the blood from our veins on a 100 % of every minute of every day basis. Come try it, then you can tell us how we should be thinking.

 ::)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:13:16 PM by tands »

dmp

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2017, 03:40:13 PM »
Quote
America is a capitalist hellscape. I live here. As a Dane, I don't expect you understand what that means. We are buried in parasites (like Obama, congress, various sh*ts in suits and pantsuits) trying to suck the blood from our veins on a 100 % of every minute of every day basis. Come try it, then you can tell us how we should be thinking.

Don't worry tands, Trump & the Republicans are going to make it much worse for everyone- but it's just a necessary step on the way to a socialist utopia... Just like your plan for single payer health care. So keep helping them out by attacking progressives.
Today the Republican's made their health care bill even more attractive to very wealthy people to try to muster more support in the house - removed the cap gains tax immediately instead of delaying until 2018.   This is the 3.8% tax the ACA implemented on cap gains > $200k.



 

tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2017, 05:23:15 PM »
Thanks dmp.  :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:12:26 PM by tands »


ksor

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2017, 04:36:35 AM »
Hi guy, did you read the 2000 words detailing Obamacare's creation and who wrote it, with who's help, I just posted last page? Go back and do that if not. There are google links so you can inform yourself further, if needed.

America is a capitalist hellscape. I live here. As a Dane, I don't expect you understand what that means. We are buried in parasites (like Obama, congress, various sh*ts in suits and pantsuits) trying to suck the blood from our veins on a 100 % of every minute of every day basis. Come try it, then you can tell us how we should be thinking.

 ::)

What the mass of people in the US should do is NOT fighting each other but fight them in the blacked limos, private jet ect. ect. and DON'T believe the story they try to tell you.

Again and again we have seen that you have the best politicians that money can buy - that's the problem, money is ruling in your country not the mass of people - get organized and do something about it, like your parents and grand parents did in the 1930's but take it further than they did and KEEP it there !
KSor, Aarhus
Denmark
Skype: keldsor

tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2017, 11:37:24 AM »
Oh, it's coming comrade [ ;D].  But it is not Obamacare, that was just some neoliberal scumbaggery to stave off single payer, and it began falling apart the second it was instituted. Thanks Obama!

I'll also note that the only thing that kept Bernie Sanders out of the white house was cheating by the corrupt neoliberals in the DNC and their sycophants. So, is the problem really republicans? Is somebody going to tell me Clinton wouldn't be wringing the money from our pockets, and the peace from our lives, for corporations and wars just the same?

Or worse?

Do I really need a guilt trip because I won't throw sh*t at the other side of corrupt freaks on cue, like some have learnt to do? Sad!

Chelsea Clinton Gets Lifetime Achievement Award for Doing Nothing

https://heatst.com/politics/chelsea-clinton-gets-lifetime-achievement-award-for-doing-nothing/?link=TD_nypost_articles.7c7e0f416376f79f&utm_source=nypost_articles.7c7e0f416376f79f&utm_campaign=circular&utm_medium=HEATST
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:07:02 PM by tands »

Lee_M

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2017, 01:24:40 AM »
Quote from: ksor
Look around in your society and find other enemies than your neighbor - all the people behind black windows in big limos, in big powerboats, in big appartments on top of big towers - they are the enemies of the mass of people - focus on them instead !
Quote from:  tands
There's no reason to let people keep the money they made by exploiting the labor of other people, they should have it taxed out of their hands to use for the common good.
Quote from:  tands
America is a capitalist hellscape.
Quote from: ksor
What the mass of people in the US should do is NOT fighting each other but fight them in the blacked limos, private jet ect. ect. and DON'T believe the story they try to tell you.

Again and again we have seen that you have the best politicians that money can buy - that's the problem, money is ruling in your country not the mass of people - get organized and do something about it, like your parents and grand parents did in the 1930's but take it further than they did and KEEP it there !

Have I just stumbled into a Socialist workers party meeting?  ;D
I like it, This is my kind of politics!

I didn't realise there were so many fellow travellers on here.

ksor

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2017, 03:40:45 AM »
> Lee_M

Yeah, you live in a country where the Labour party committed itself to co-op's and that's tha path to go !

Every capitalist selling his company in the UK has to offer to the workers to take over as a co-op !
KSor, Aarhus
Denmark
Skype: keldsor

Lee_M

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2017, 11:25:52 AM »
you live in a country where the Labour party committed itself to co-op's and that's tha path to go !

Absolutely, We've just gotta hope they get elected at the next election!

The UK media seems to have united in a concerted effort to discredit the current leader of the Labour party, Jeremy Corbyn.

tands

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2017, 10:59:22 PM »
This is how American health insurance companies kill people.

Quote
Matthew Stewart owes $62,668.78 for drugs, surgeries, and other treatment. With both bankruptcy and possibly fatal liver failure looming, he doesn't even bother opening his bills anymore, he told The Week. "There was no point. They just upset everyone," he says.

Stewart is 29 years old, and was pursuing his Ph.D in American history at Texas Christian University until ill health forced him to withdraw. He lives in Ft. Worth, Texas, with his wife of six years, who is a junior high school teacher in a low-income district. They own their home. Before he came down with complications from cirrhosis caused by autoimmune hepatitis, he says he led a scrupulously healthy lifestyle — he does not drink or do any other non-medical drugs, he says, and was a devoted hiker before disaster struck. And he was insured — indeed, he had a gold plan from the ObamaCare exchanges, the second-best level of plan that you can get.

But now he faces imminent bankruptcy and possibly death.

The incomprehensible brutality of Stewart's story is an object lesson in how the American health care system mercilessly crushes American citizens when they are at their weakest and most vulnerable. With a liver transplant, Stewart might well live a full life. But before he can even be eligible for one, he must thread his way through a Kafkaesque labyrinth of private and public bureaucracy — and hope he doesn't die before he makes it through.

https://theweek.com/articles/666799/how-american-health-care-kills-people

sodderboy

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2017, 11:39:55 AM »
I am happy for those who live in Denmark with their great "healthcare" system.  The population of any three of the five NYC counties is larger than that of Denmark, and considerably more diverse then 96% ethnically danish Denmark.  It doesn't scale.  Try to understand it in that way, and enjoy your free stuff.  Don't talk about too much or we will all be going over there. 

Someone mentioned robbing Peter to pay Paul, but we need to add that we borrow a buck from Ping for every two taken from Peter.  Basically Ping pays for the 33% loss of a $ as it passes through DC and any given state.

PPCACA reduced the number of insurers available to the self-employed in New York State from 4 to 2.  Those two companies name their own price given that there is no competition.   It has brought none of the promises given at the time when they were trying to sell it.  Best to let it crumble on it's own inefficiencies and lies.

No grandstanding R or D will vote for a "healthcare" bill that includes them.  THAT is the real problem here.

Lee_M

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2017, 12:28:29 PM »
The population of any three of the five NYC counties is larger than that of Denmark, and considerably more diverse then 96% ethnically danish Denmark.  It doesn't scale.
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't scale proportionally.The denser population would mean more tax being generated to cover public healthcare costs,  Right?
If anything, a denser population would probably allow for more centralisation of facilities and staff than a sparser population would.

Also, What does diversity or ethnicity have to do with healthcare?

Enjoy your free stuff.
It's not free though, Is it? People pay for it with their taxes, It just means that big pharma doesn't get to take a cut for doing nothing.

Don't talk about too much or we will all be going over there.
As long as the system is properly paid for through tax and politicians ensure adequate funding is maintained in line with population growth, I don't think this would be a problem.

The USA would do  well to set up national health service, Like in the UK, As that removes insurers completely from the equation.
Of course, Most republicans and democrats are firmly in the pockets of the private health corporations, so that won't happen.

JohnRoberts

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2017, 01:06:16 PM »
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't scale proportionally.The denser population would mean more tax being generated to cover public healthcare costs,  Right?
No, the effective tax rate does.  NHS gets just under 2,000 pounds per man,woman,child.
Quote
If anything, a denser population would probably allow for more centralisation of facilities and staff than a sparser population would.
US is much less densely populated than europe. One reason there are no high speed trains here.
Quote
Also, What does diversity or ethnicity have to do with healthcare?
Cultural expectations... Nations with homogeneous populations, that are accustomed to paying high tax rates to receive high levels of government service, are more willing to embrace government run health care. 
Quote
It's not free though, Is it? People pay for it with their taxes, It just means that big pharma doesn't get to take a cut for doing nothing.
That is an overly simplistic characterization. I have been writing about this for years. The US is wealthy and generous. We in effect subsidize low drug prices around the world by supporting R&D costs with high prices here. As drugs prices fall under the microscope of voter inspection, I doubt they will be as generous in the future.

I am willing to embrace a single world drug price, where the US pays the exact same drug prices as everybody else, and the drug makers must fund future R&D costs from "all" customers.  Truly poor nations deserve a price break, but the rest of the (wealthy) western world needs to pay a fair price for drugs.
Quote
As long as the system is properly paid for through tax and politicians ensure adequate funding is maintained in line with population growth, I don't think this would be a problem.
One significant complaint about the current ACA is the massive wealth transfer engineered into it. While this is a long term goal of the left... If we actually want to do that, lets do wealth transfers with even more progressive tax policy and not conceal it in health care reform.
Quote
The USA would do  well to set up national health service, Like in the UK, As that removes insurers completely from the equation.
Of course, Most republicans and democrats are firmly in the pockets of the private health corporations, so that won't happen.
Beware of simple answers to complex problems.

The NHS is 98% funded by taxes and consumes roughly 10% of GDP. It has been in place since WWII and generally works. All socialized health care systems have problems with an aging population and end of life costs. They are no exception.

The current ACA is IMO a train wreck that was designed to fail, so a future left leaning administration could bail it out with even more taxpayer resources. That didn't happen, so now we are in the difficult position of trying to rationalize this. The US has never taken back a single entitlement once granted, and I don't expect them to start now, but hopefully they can reign this into something we can afford.

As I have been saying all along, this will not be easy... recent evidence supports my opinion, but it is still early in the administration's term. I expect tax reform and budget (debt) issues to consume all the political oxygen in the room for a while. Hopefully the democrats will eventually join the party so we can have a bi-partisan effort. The only thing IMO that can work long term.

But what would I know?

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

dmp

Re: The Lessons of Obamacare
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2017, 01:25:04 PM »
It's all about the money
A good health care plan costs $10k-$20k/yr on the high end -
If a person makes $200k/yr, that's 10% of income.
If a person makes $1million/yr, that's 2%
If a person makes $100million/year, it becomes only 0.02%.
Do you think Trump cares about spending 0.02% on health care? 
Now a 3.8% tax like ACA, that's a much more significant amount of money for a wealthy individual.
And single payer? The % tax increase for that would probably be even more.
Politician's are nearly all VERY wealthy. The wealthy have been running the show for quite awhile.