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No capitalism is based on private ownership... (Imagine a system where you couldn't own stuff?).

Capitalism at best is a win-win where wealth creation is shared with workers out of mutual self interest.  Just like some kids don't share their toys some capitalists are better than others at sharing their created wealth. The most successful have generally made many others wealthy too.  At worst the excesses of capitalism can lead to bad (human) behavior which is why we use regulation to keep the bad actors in check.  Too much regulation can kill the golden goose, while not enough can allow abuses.

Strength and weakness are more familiar terms associated with authoritarian governments.  I have been sharing the slow motion decline of Venezuela , once one of the wealthiest countries in south america, now unable to even feed and provide basic services for their people. Venezuela rejected the private ownership of capitalism and nationalized most major industries.  After decades of government mismanagement  many industries are no longer self sustaining.  Maduro has leveraged his control over the judiciary to block a recall election and is now trying to reform the government to follow the Cuban model. This has not done good for the Cuban people and won't end well for Venezuela.

=====
Profit is the mother's milk of business. Without profit a private business can not continue to operate.  Only government can print money or take citizens money by force, but eventually they run out of other people's money.  Right now Venezuela is having trouble even borrowing money, despite large international oil assets (Citgo). The debt holders are circling those assets to see who gets them when the music stops, and the music is playing softer.

JR

PS: Sorry I am not a millennial and didn't watch your videos. Keep typing out your own ideas.
 
JohnRoberts said:
Capitalism at best is a win-win where wealth creation is shared with workers out of mutual self interest. 
Capitalism ideally is a win-win.  There is not a single case you can point to in reality where a pure capitalist system has ever worked that way.  Capitalism is just another utopianist theory.  What you & your lunatic right wing nutter friends fail to see (and it happens over and over and over--no amount of real-world examples ever sway you, so  I must assume you are all insane) is that an unfettered capitalist system has never worked and will never work.  Modified capitalism (with elements of socialism thrown in, and various checks on wealth and power) can work okay.  That's a realistic approach to dealing with the inherent flaws of capitalist theory.  And yet all you true believers insist on attacking all the checks and balances that have developed over time as various problems have needed to be addressed--and why?  To get back to some purist ideal that is doomed to fail?  Because you all are so bloody crazy you can't accept what your lying eyes tell you time and time again? 

 
hodad said:
Capitalism ideally is a win-win.  There is not a single case you can point to in reality where a pure capitalist system has ever worked that way.  Capitalism is just another utopianist theory.  What you & your lunatic right wing nutter friends fail to see (and it happens over and over and over--no amount of real-world examples ever sway you, so  I must assume you are all insane) is that an unfettered capitalist system has never worked and will never work.  Modified capitalism (with elements of socialism thrown in, and various checks on wealth and power) can work okay.  That's a realistic approach to dealing with the inherent flaws of capitalist theory.  And yet all you true believers insist on attacking all the checks and balances that have developed over time as various problems have needed to be addressed--and why?  To get back to some purist ideal that is doomed to fail?  Because you all are so bloody crazy you can't accept what your lying eyes tell you time and time again?
I lost count of the insults.... don't think I will respond.

JR
 
s2udio said:
The Democ*rats ........etc etc etc.......And all SO called Politicians and political party's, elected by the people , for the  people
World wide.... Should have the peoples interest at the heart........,Thats not the Agenda BTW..
Control and Domination is the "Name Of The Game"
The FED -FIAT corperation  money game  / alongside the total mainstreem media brainwash bull.
Here is their Solution....
We Have  A Problem, Cause a Critical Reaction,.... and now we can Implement our Solution.
Premeditated Government and Media Brainwash on an industrial scale  !!

Since mid 2016  early 2017, I personally have stopped watching the mainstream bombardment of "52+ channels of sh*t" mentality for the masses,
This ""stuff"" we are non conciously absorbing  via smartphone and other devices etc etc, into our poor submitting confused minds !
It's a disease, our young zombie millenial generation, are turning into a compliant, non questioning, zombie nation.
We should be helping migrants/immigrants , by spending the capatalists wasted money by the Western (USA-UK-EU-UAE) ..
Rape and Destruction of the Middle East,etc etc
Refurbishing the countries we have raped and pillaged killing millions      :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Instead of the billions/ trillions spent ,  via proxy wars that have only one interest,......that of the few Ultra rich elite , the 1%.
Who have but one aim ..... gain , through deceitful practices and total lies that are a scourge to this planets peace, and peoples
Health and prosperity.......The Biggest Lie Ever is now in full flow , and has been ever since WWII and before.
"They do not really care for any one but themselves"
Oh and lets not bring up that "Russian " baloney
I no longer watch TV ,and only listen selected radio / internet and filtered media.
As music has always been my creativity outlet ,.....it now has a renewed my energy.
And of course the Listening to "Music.......Old and New"
It has boosted my mental spirital and physical wellbeing for the better,.......Including finishing a few Mic Pre's and the DL2A.
I am not a conspirasist nut ,.................. you are in the conspiracy...

Sorry for the rant.......be critical of what you are being told, and always seek the truth, for yourself and the ones you love.
Your Spiritual wellbeing will thank you , ;)

A few links to info... be critical and do you're own  reasearch ....

Serious stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X_xB1JJ_Es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNeOTOytEeA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P50Xx56qvZk

New Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkjNNClccOI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyjNard5ers

Peace and love DIY'ers
S2udio
You hit the nail on the thumb. It's scary where all this is going. "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"...
 
tands said:
I'm glad you liked the article Spiritworks, www.nakedcapitalism is a good site, their daily Watercoolers are excellent political daily news, too.

In a capitalist system, making a 'better' life for yourself means exploiting other people and the commons, so that others have a worse life than you do, or being exploited yourself to subsidise someone else's 'better' life. There is no virtue in a capitalist, or a boss.

.
Capitalism as-implemented creates a slave economy. They keep the prols down with the hope of the "dream" to create a better life, but I'm sorry it's not just about working hard  or even smarter.

Anyone see the movie The Island?
 
JohnRoberts said:
I lost count of the insults.... don't think I will respond.

JR

I didn't always feel that way.  I used to think there were common problems shared by folks left & right (I still think that), & common ground that could be found to work toward a solution (I no longer think this.)  There's a blissful unwillingness to acknowledge the lessons of history (to see the pratfalls & pure nastiness of early capitalism, to accept that the rise of trade unions, labor laws, etc. were necessary to offset what unfettered capitalism brought forth), and an equal unwillingness to acknowledge the lessons of contemporary times (eg, to accept that W Bush's reign illustrated that trickle-down theory is indeed, as his father so famously called it, "voodoo economics.")  If people insist on being anti-empirical, insist on entertaining no doubt that their closely held theories could possibly be contradicted by what is staring them straight in the face, then I can think of nothing kinder to call them than delusional. 

I wish I could see it differently, but that's the empirical evidence that's staring me in the face, the painful truth that I have to acknowledge.  And it doesn't make me happy--not in the least--but that's how things go sometimes. 
 
So how many of you anti-capitalists are using home-made computers with parts you made from scratch in the garage  and software you wrote on the back of a napkin?
 
Spiritworks said:
So how many of you anti-capitalists are using home-made computers with parts you made from scratch in the garage  and software you wrote on the back of a napkin?
So you apparently believe that capitalism is the only driver of human achievement?

So how many of you here  make music equipment at a loss just for the sheer joy of it?

I'm one.

If a system doesn't work it should be changed. The current system brings out the worst in people and causes them to work for either need or greed - not for the joy of the work. Surely there's another concept for fruitful societies?

Ever hear of the Venus Project?

I get that asking people to work "for free" as it were, for "the state" or for "the good of the people" is a tough sell - whenever our labors are disconnected from meaning, we suffer and so does society.

Is there another way to confer meaning to our work, and prevent it from being exploited by others? Isn't this the heart of it? We don't want to be taken advantage of, and we want our labor to give back to us directly in some way?

Is there another way to achieve this important goal/need?

"But without incentive, nothing would get done!"

So, the incentive to eat would still be there, no? We'd still do what was necessary to survive, and thrive, without a system forcing us to, right? You don't labor because Uncle Sam tells you to, do you?

We do things in our own lives "for free" or because we have to, and society can work the same way.

I read a great book one time - "A Vision of a World Without Money. Thought-provoking. There are other structures besides Capitalism that can work. Or use elements of Capitalism mixed with other concepts. Contrary to what has been drummed into our heads by the fat cats at the top, Capitalism is not the best thing in the world. It's best for some people, only a few. It's a harsh slave existence for the rest.

Not good. Better can be found/created. Let's figure this out.
 
At the risk of stating the obvious, this is not a new question...  Smarter people than me have studied and debated the pros and cons of different systems, as long as there have been governments. While not every government embraces such criticism (we protect that speech).

I've shared before that when our founders created our current government they performed an exhaustive study of all previous systems (I recommend reading the Federalist Papers, for some of their arguments and discussion, made hundreds of years ago but still relevant today).

I have said that IMO capitalism appears better than every other system, and there are numerous examples of different systems around the world that are generally vastly inferior. Some of the more optimistic alternate systems are not really comparable, because the populations are not as diverse as we are (diversity is generally a good thing, but complicates winning political agreement). 

I do not claim that capitalism is perfect or free of corrupting influences, but regulation can give us the benefit of capitalism while managing the downsides (but this is not easy or done perfectly now).

It is good to keep looking for better ways, but let's not assume that our current system was adopted casually.  I see the United States as a huge success, not a failure.  The arguments that this is based on exploitation of weakness may appeal to those embracing a victim mentality.

In many ways it is easier to create or develop new products today than decades ago,  but you need to be willing to walk the high wire alone. If you fall get up and try again.  There are worse places to live, with far less opportunity for advancement than here.

JR
 
I've shared before that when our founders created our current government they performed an exhaustive study of all previous systems (I recommend reading the Federalist Papers, for some of their arguments and discussion, made hundreds of years ago but still relevant today).
After finishing reading that, how about playing a game of Monopoly with some friends?
After a hour of so of play (when three people are broke and one person is rich, and the broke losers knock the game board off the table - Revolution!), the flaws of pure Capitalism (and the endgame USA is approaching) might be apparent. The game was created to show the unsustainable nature of Capitalism.

Just because a well regulated Capitalism with a sufficiently progressive tax structure to counter wealth concentration doesn't have a name in the discussion of system (i.e. pure Capitalism vs. Socialism vs. Fascism Vs. Communism), doesn't mean it isn't a valid better system.

The idea that everybody can be a winner in a Capitalistic society is plainly false. What would happen if everyone were rich? Inflation would increase to the point that everyone were again middle class. 

 
dmp said:
After finishing reading that, how about playing a game of Monopoly with some friends?
an analogy for life...  more interesting to play poker... but I haven't even done that for years....
After a hour of so of play (when three people are broke and one person is rich, and the broke losers knock the game board off the table - Revolution!), the flaws of pure Capitalism (and the endgame USA is approaching) might be apparent. The game was created to show the unsustainable nature of Capitalism.
They just changed the game recently, I don't recall all the details but the lost the thimble because kids today don't even know what that is.  I am afraid to look at what else they changed.  People only hate the rich when they give up thinking they could be rich.
Just because a well regulated Capitalism with a sufficiently progressive tax structure to counter wealth concentration doesn't have a name in the discussion of system (i.e. pure Capitalism vs. Socialism vs. Fascism Vs. Communism), doesn't mean it isn't a valid better system.

The idea that everybody can be a winner in a Capitalistic society is plainly false. What would happen if everyone were rich? Inflation would increase to the point that everyone were again middle class.
Nobody claims that.... see Pareto Rule or law of the vital few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle it also can be used to characterize income and wealth distribution in populations.

Capitalism provides the most opportunity for the most people... you have to work to win...

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
  The arguments that this is based on exploitation of weakness may appeal to those embracing a victim mentality.

Right, because those who reject being exploited or exploiting do so because they're 'embracing a victim mentality'. What a cheap little smear. You're saying 'might makes right', be a victimizer not a victim, and you make my point that capitalism operates on the arrangement and exploitation of the weakness of others, who would not be in as weakened a state if it weren't for capitalism and capitalists. It's nice to have it clear that we all understand that.

.
 
What's being left out of discussion is that the game really is rigged. It's not "victim mentality" as you say - in fact the sad part is the enthusiasm with which people embrace the system with the hope to create "the dream."

It's called "the dream" for a very good reason - because for most people it is just that.

I am not for a second advocating lying down in the street and demanding others take care of me - I pull my weight, hard. What I am saying is this system is by, for, and perpetuated by and for, the rich. To say that the common prol really has a say in what goes on is just plain delusion. We do not. My vote does not count. Your vote does not count. The puppets they parade in front of us generally all have the same agenda once elected, no matter which party they are in.

It's not being a victim to cry "foul" in a game - it's recognizing what is, for what is.

I also don't subscribe to the view that "many others smarter than myself have failed to come up with something better, so why try?"

I know you didn't say that JR - you said in fact you are open to other systems - but the general attitude is one of acquiescence. We are not beaten until we shrug our shoulders and say it's just the way it is, or stop the fierce spirit of life that is within.

You cannot regulate wolves. The regulators themselves are either wolves themselves, or owned by them. The system regulating itself is a joke - what you see IS a product of the system "regulating itself," which it doesn't. Oh they make a show of it from time to time, but soon as media attention falls off it's back to business as usual.

I am not saying all aspects of capitalism are "evil" or bad - in fact I shared a few (I think) valuable concepts here.

1) We all want to see the fruits of our labor come back to us in some way. That's decidedly a capitalistic principle, and I agree with it

2) We all want to find meaning and value in what we do - this is not necessarily part of capitalistic principles, and it's part of what's wrong with it. The system does not provide an easy way for an individual to freely move around to discover such things - not when the mortgage and mouths to feed are staring them down

3) Money does nothing. Absolutely, unequivocally, nothing. PEOPLE do. As soon as we can see the money charade for what it is - a paper or digital puppet standing between a person and their labors - we realize that it isn't necessary.

Money is only necessary when you want to control people. It does not, and never will, create a fair system or any kind of system that will be universally sustainable. It is, as has been pointed out, a gigantic Monopoly game. There's also a reason they call this game Monopoly - because to play it well you have to screw over everyone else.

How is it that we have a system that brings out the worst qualities in humanity - and also provides that the worst characters rise to power?

I realize corruption is inherent in the human condition, and not capitalism - any system can become corrupted. But what we have here is a classic case of bait and switch. Trade your life for "the dream." Because for most, that's all you're ever going to get, despite working hard or smart.

Watch "The Island" for a perfect analogy of this principle. It's a great sci-fi with Ewan McGregor and Charlotte Johansen. Can't go wrong with this couple.
 
JohnRoberts said:
Capitalism provides the most opportunity for the most people... you have to work to win...

JR
And herein also lies the heart of what is wrong with capitalism. By "win" you might as well say "live." Because many struggle with that as a daily reality. It's not about getting more cars and houses, it's about feeding yourself and your family - and when those are the stakes of the game, it isn't fun anymore. Nor is it fair.

Of course we want people to work hard and incentivise them to draw forth their excellence - something capitalism purports to do - but is that really what's needed to bring out the best in people?

Think of the truly great people throughout history. Which of them were great capitalists? MLK? Ghandi? Mozart? Einstein? Tesla? Joan of Arc?

Which of these truly greatly admired men or women were great capitalists?

No, our excellence comes from within.

Capitalism is a damn crappy system, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing it to perpetuate. There IS something better even if I can't articulate it. Maybe one of you can. Don't think for a second that we are just audio/gear guys so what could we come up with?

Only, maybe, a much better solution. What do you think?
 
JohnRoberts said:
Capitalism provides the most opportunity for the most people... you have to work to win...

I see comments like this, John, and I honestly wonder about your experience and empathy.

I agree with the others who state that "the game is rigged."  (That it's considered a "game" is appalling, but I digress.) And, I think, worse than that, too many people aren't able to step up to the plate, for a variety of Really Good Reasons. Many are not even aware that there's a game to be played. Some who know about the game choose to not play.

Some of you might know that I have a nine-year-old son. He just finished second grade at a Tucson public school. The following might be described as "walking the walk." The school is a magnet school, which in this case it was given magnet status to achieve desegregation goals.  It's on the south side of Tucson, in a neighborhood that is almost completely poor Latino. Most of us who are a certain age remember the controversial desegregation program of busing poor inner-city black kids to majority suburban white school districts. The magnet program here turns that on its head -- rather than busing the poor kids to the rich neighborhoods, it aims to bring the more-affluent people to the schools in the poorer areas. It does that by funding programs in those schools which will attract those more-affluent families. The result is that the school has a majority population of the neighborhood kids, with a significant number of magnet students, whose families are like mine -- the parents are college-educated (many with terminal degrees) and are professionals in fields from engineering (hello) to public health (my wife) to biology and psychology and medical and you name it. We choose to be part of the solution, not to look for the "easy outs" that might be offered by charter schools or by private schools. You can't change and improve something from the outside.

I'll say right off the bat that funding is always a problem, which means the schools still don't have the best computers, and there's no full-time music teacher and librarian and a bunch of other perks that the kids in the Tucson Foothills schools take for granted. But to the extent that attractive programs exist, it's actually fine. Perks are nice, but the real differences are made by the teachers.

So to my point. My son is a very bright kid. That, in and of itself, is really not unusual. A lot of kids in his school are very bright. I'm there most mornings, and I see it.  But my son has had advantages that the neighborhood kids don't have. My son went to a well-run preschool from the age of two. The tuition alone is out of the question for most of these kids. So he started kindergarten having already learned a lot, and that put him well ahead of the kids whose first day of any kind of school was the first day of kindergarten. Those kids usually stayed home with their abuelita, because the parents have to work, and preschool isn't any kind of option, and the kids end up spending most of the day parked in front of the TV set. That's not at all the kids' fault, that's not even the parents' fault or the grandmothers' fault. It's the reality of the situation they're in.

My kid has two parents who work well-paying jobs with flexible work hours, so we can be there when we need to. We make enough money so that he's never wanting. (That's not to say that we spoil him, and we're clear about what things cost, and he even understands the difference between cost and value.) Parents of the poor kids? They can't be at the school in the morning because they have to work. They can't pick the kids up at school because they have to work. Teachers have to schedule and reschedule parent-teacher conferences because some parents just can't carve out the time to do it. Sick kids go to school anyway, because there's nobody home to watch them.

And it just gets more unequal from there. From access to technology to access to books, there are great disparities. For some of the kids, the lunch (and if they get in early enough, breakfast) is the only meal of the day. Think about that. (I will state for the record: school lunch should be free and of high quality. The people who shame kids when parents cannot pay the meal bills oughta be taken out back and whipped. I am serious. What heartless fucks, to shame kids for something that is beyond their control.) Did you know a reason why some kids in junior high school and high school will skip class? Because they don't have access to laundry facilities and they're ashamed of coming to school in dirty clothes. Schools in these districts are recognizing this issue, and are getting laundry machines donated from whomever they can.

Kids in that situation -- they're not in "the game." They don't know there's a "game" they can play, or if they do, they know they won't even get a try-out. They can work harder than any of us posting here have ever worked in our entire lives, and it won't matter. They won't get the good jobs, because they don't even know what those jobs are. They won't get into those colleges, because they're unaffordable. Not even the local highly-rated land-grant research university is affordable, despite the State's constitution requiring (yes, requiring) that a public-school education be "as nearly free as possible." These bright kids, very smart, eager to learn, ready to take on the world and do good things, well, they're screwed. (And you shouldn't wonder why so many poor families gamble on the chance to earn a sports scholarship and then hope the kid wins the lottery and goes pro -- because that's what they see. Right there in front of them, every day, on the television.)

So tell me that they're "not working hard enough" and I'll call you a liar.


The aim of the magnet program is desegregation, but it provides a valuable real-world lesson in diversity that goes both ways. My kid and the other magnet kids see the local kids as just kids, and the local kids see the same. The best way to combat racial and social issues is to start young and let the kids see that nobody is really different. (Make no mistake, though, as this seems like utopia, but it requires vigilance on everyone's part, the parents, the teachers, and the kids, to put a stop to problems before they erupt.)

And the part of this that the magnet families give is this. How does a poor kid even learn about "engineering," as a concept, forget as a possible career? How does she learn about different sciences, or, hell, even what it really means to be a musician (and not a "pop star")? The answer is glaringly obvious: people who work in those fields can come to the school and talk about it. The kids know us, because we are always at the school in the morning during their outside assembly. I've spent quite a few hours in the classrooms, talking to kids about "what it means to be an engineer." I always start by pulling out my iPhone, pointing to it, and saying, "This thing was designed by engineers. And you know what? Look around. Pretty much everything you can think of was designed by engineers. Your TV, your computer, your electronic games, your refrigerator, your car, airplanes, trains, all designed by engineers. The sprinkler system that comes on if there's a fire in the room? Designed by engineers. Engineers designed the building we're in so it wouldn't fall down. Engineers designed the city water and sewer systems, and engineers designed the electrical grid that makes sure we have power to keep the lights and air conditioning on." And I've noticed that as I give examples like these, the kids get it. I see light bulbs turning on over heads. They've never considered this, but of course why would they? It's more than opening doors for the kids. It's showing them that these doors even exist.

Naturally, they ask, "So how do you become an engineer?" And I say, "Generally, you have to want to 'make' things. You have to want to know how things work. And you'll want to go to a university with an engineering program." (And that's when I point out to the kids who are always wearing University of Arizona shirts that the school is more than just a basketball team.) And I say, "And you'll have to work hard. When an engineer makes something, it has to work. People who use what we make expect them to just work. And that's hard. As one of my professors told a student, 'You build bridge, bridge fall down, no partial credit!'" (And then I explain what "partial credit" means.)

But I always finish by saying, "There is nothing more rewarding to the engineer than to create something and see it working, and then to see other people using what you've created."

If my talks inspire even just one kid to go to that land-grant research university, and get the same degree I got nearly 30 years ago, and go out there and create something cool, then I've "made the world a better place," as those tech bros like to say while begging for money.

-a
 
1.  There's "working hard" and "working smart".
2.  Some folks are "smarter" than others.
3.  Some folks are "luckier" than others.
4.  If you can't afford to have kids, don't.
5.  If you are not in a stable, 2 adult relationship, don't have kids.
6.  Some folks equate "money" to success, some don't.  YMMV
Best,
Bruno2000
 
tands said:
Right, because those who reject being exploited or exploiting do so because they're 'embracing a victim mentality'. What a cheap little smear. You're saying 'might makes right', be a victimizer not a victim, and you make my point that capitalism operates on the arrangement and exploitation of the weakness of others, who would not be in as weakened a state if it weren't for capitalism and capitalists. It's nice to have it clear that we all understand that.

.
Repeating it doesn't make it true, any more than me repeating my denial. We clearly have different opinions about this.

You are entitled to your opinion. But please don't put words in my mouth. I am not saying anything like that, just don't expect to have the world handed to you on a platter..

Life is not a zero sum game where somebody has to lose for the other person to win (while that makes a very attractive political argument... "those rich people have your money").

In real life everybody doesn't get a trophy so figure out how to create value. If an employee, figure out what your employer needs and give him/her more of that. If a merchant figure out what your customer needs/values.

JR

 
I don't repeat it to make it true, I repeat it because it is true. Capitalism is not Life, and capitalism IS a zero sum game. The object of the capitalist is to pay you just enough to feed, clothe, house, and transport yourself to work and not a penny more. Because if you get that penny, they don't.

JohnRoberts said:
Life is not a zero sum game where somebody has to lose for the other person to win (while that makes a very attractive political argument... "those rich people have your money").

In real life everybody doesn't get a trophy so figure out how to create value. If an employee, figure out what your employer needs and give him/her more of that. If a merchant figure out what your customer needs/values.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/879865688898359296 [nsfw]

.
 
tands said:
I don't repeat it to make it true, I repeat it because it is true. Capitalism is not Life, and capitalism IS a zero sum game. The object of the capitalist is to pay you just enough to feed, clothe, house, and transport yourself to work and not a penny more. Because if you get that penny, they don't.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/879865688898359296 [nsfw]

.
It really can't be stated any better. Yes.
 
Think of the truly great people throughout history. Which of them were great capitalists? MLK? Ghandi? Mozart? Einstein? Tesla? Joan of Arc?

Stanford University had a vote by the student body on what to rename their sports mascot and the winner was the "Stanford Robber Barons".  You see the school was founded by Leland Stanford, a railroad tycoon at the turn of the century.  Of course the University didn't allow it.
 

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