JohnRoberts

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2017, 09:38:18 AM »

Not to continue this knee jerk exercise every time there is a high profile crime...

That fancy graphic noted that chicago had the most non-fatal shootings. One unintended side effect of fighting our perpetual wars is that life saving treatments for gunshot wounds have dramatically improved the gunshot survival rates.

[/edit]   coincidentally I just saw an article in the newspaper saying that some military surgeons do a 30 day stint in Baltimore hospitals to freshen up on their gunshot wound treatment before rotating out to the middle east. Military surgeons were brought to Las vegas, to help with that mass shooting event. In fact the military works in several large city hospitals to get useful gunshot treatment training.  So I guess the scalpel cuts both ways. [/edit]

The graphic shows how bad it is in many cities. (St Louis is ground zero for the Ferguson effect).

New Orleans is a dangerous city,,, I visited many times and there were almost always tourists killed (in the french quarter) while I was there.  I even had an undercover cop stop me there and tell me to not walk down the street I was on alone at night (like I was).

I only mention Chicago because it is is easy to find the stats, and under scrutiny, because the high profile mayor hasn't fixed it yet.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...


mattiasNYC

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 09:38:41 AM »
You can't talk about gun control without a federal or at least state level gun registry.

I don't think most people outside the US realise you don't have one... After 11'000-13'000 gun murders a year since forever, most of us probably expected a bit more common sense.

The two things that shouldn't be expected of the US is common sense and the Spanish inquisition....

mattiasNYC

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 09:43:33 AM »
I only mention Chicago because it is is easy to find the stats, and under scrutiny, because the high profile mayor hasn't fixed it yet.

JR

Curiously though, pretty much every single time there's an argument on either gun violence or police killings an American conservative that disagrees with the description or prescription will bring up Chicago. So the "srcutiny" appears to be more the making of a talking-point rather than based in some sort of reason. As for a "high profile" mayor... well, he's a democrat and he served in the Obama admin, so of course it's of interest to some.

Just doesn't strike me as all that hard to find stats on this throughout the US' major cities and also states and then pick the worst of the bunch.

I do however think there is something else to it that makes it "attractive".

JohnRoberts

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 10:13:58 AM »
Curiously though, pretty much every single time there's an argument on either gun violence or police killings an American conservative that disagrees with the description or prescription will bring up Chicago. So the "srcutiny" appears to be more the making of a talking-point rather than based in some sort of reason. As for a "high profile" mayor... well, he's a democrat and he served in the Obama admin, so of course it's of interest to some.
one man's logical argument is another's talking point when trying to discredit the person you disagree with.

Rahm (it through) Emanuel was high profile before serving inside the Pres Obama administration. He was in the Clinton administration and served a few terms in congress. As a democratic party operative who was over the top aggressive he earned  his nickname "Rahmbo". 

As mayor of Chicago he has reiterated his sanctuary city policy, and mishandled several high profile matters. He is raising money for another run as mayor, but needs to raise his poll numbers first.
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Just doesn't strike me as all that hard to find stats on this throughout the US' major cities and also states and then pick the worst of the bunch.
per your graphic St louis is the worst, and that correlates with the Ferguson effect originating nearby.
Quote
I do however think there is something else to it that makes it "attractive".
My brother lived there for years, and I visited regularly when the summer NAMM shows used to be there before attendance dropped off (the wake on the lake). I have even been robbed there (cash taken from my hotel room while I was asleep). I have a casual interest in Chicago, and other troubled cities. I am waiting for unintended consequences from the current mayor in NYC relaxing law enforcement. I grew up outside NYC so still have interest there too.

I have zero interest in why you think, I think, Chicago is attractive. I still refuse to argue with you about me. Poke someone else if you want someone to wrestle with.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

mattiasNYC

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 01:55:24 PM »
one man's logical argument is another's talking point when trying to discredit the person you disagree with.

Whatever. Whenever gun regulation is the topic it shifts to Chicago and cars, and black-on-black crime....

I have zero interest in why you think, I think, Chicago is attractive. I still refuse to argue with you about me. Poke someone else if you want someone to wrestle with.

JR

Not everything revolves around you John. Although I quoted you you were only part of the group American conservatives. So if you feel the need to take it personally because I don't agree with you then feel free.

mattiasNYC

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2017, 04:22:45 PM »
One point is that people that are in favor of fairly liberal gun legislation or in opposition of imposing more restrictions often point to Chicago, and the fact that they "all" do make it seem like it's far less of a well reasoned argument they're making and instead more of a conservative herd mentality. That means that one should question the argumentation because of what appears to be more than a bit of some sort of bias.

Another point is that Chicago illustrates the hole in their reasoning. If guns are illegal in Chicago, and if guns come mostly from other states, and if neighboring states have higher crimes: How does talking about "solving" Chicago refute further restricting gun ownership nationally? The answer is; it doesn't. It's a dumb argument. It's like saying that instead of restricting gun ownership in New York, the Bronx doesn't allow guns, and then saying that gun violence there needs to be solved, all while knowing that the people of the Bronx go down to Brooklyn to get their guns, and that Brooklyn has higher rates of gun violence. Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't.

And for the record: I'm not inherently against gun ownership. I think in a good society people should be allowed to own at least revolvers and pistols. But my definition of a good society is one where the population is educated, intelligent, responsible, happy and mentally 'safe'. Americans have shown themselves to not qualify (according to aforementioned criteria) to handle weapon ownership... and far too afraid and emotional... Ergo my opposition to Americans owning them. But ideally, yeah, people should be allowed to own them.

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2017, 05:33:19 PM »
I think in a good society people should be allowed to own at least revolvers and pistols. But my definition of a good society is one where the population is educated, intelligent, responsible, happy and mentally 'safe'. Americans have shown themselves to not qualify (according to aforementioned criteria) to handle weapon ownership... and far too afraid and emotional... Ergo my opposition to Americans owning them.

I guess the same would apply to the american state, then? Seems to me more cops are shooting people unnecesarily than regular gun owners are. Maybe it's the same. Aren't we bombing Yemen for some inscrutably corrupt reason?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:45:07 PM by tands »
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Matador

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2017, 06:45:02 PM »
Conservatives tend to think in terms of actual problem solving.
Objection: assumes facts not in evidence. ;)

JohnRoberts

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2017, 07:48:16 PM »
Aren't we bombing Yemen for some inscrutably corrupt reason?

Yemen has been a proxy war between Iran and Saudi arabia both fighting for influence in the middle east. 

US commandos (seals) have carried out surgical strikes against al qaeda (remember them?) operating in yemen. One seal was killed during one strike and that made headlines (in jan '17) early in Pres Trump's administration.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2017, 08:52:42 PM »
That's a pretty big seem......

So the regular owners are killing each other out of necessity?? Or do regular gun owners not kill as many as police? Define regular.

I agree that cops are out of control sometimes but it's pretty isolated when you look at the big picture of how many officers there are on duty......
 

I wonder how many people have been shot by police unnecesarily between sandy hook and this las vegas thing? More than were killed in those two incidents? I think it's likely. My point is that if Mattias wants to take american's guns away because they're wackjobs, the same standard should be applied to the police and the state, that is applied to regular americans. They're americans too.

Why not, if not?

.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:58:01 PM by tands »
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21


Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2017, 08:54:59 PM »
Yemen has been a proxy war between Iran and Saudi arabia both fighting for influence in the middle east. 

US commandos (seals) have carried out surgical strikes against al qaeda (remember them?) operating in yemen. One seal was killed during one strike and that made headlines (in jan '17) early in Pres Trump's administration.

Yes, thank you. That's exactly what I mean.
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

gltech

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2017, 02:23:56 AM »
A really good article from Forbes. Debunks 10 popular lies about guns:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/10/06/ten-lies-distort-the-gun-control-debate/#575a02f61fad

Shows it's these lies that keep the USA from moving ahead.

Hilarious how he says "America’s capital of gun violence is in deep-red Louisiana." New Orleans is far from being "red." Amazing how you can google "new orleans election results" and all you get are "Louisiana" results.

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2017, 02:32:39 AM »
Yemen has been a proxy war between Iran and Saudi arabia both fighting for influence in the middle east.

Yemen has nothing to do with a proxy war. It's a great cover story for two US allies committing war crimes though, never mind the billions in weapons sales. No point in selling someone all that ammo, if they have nowhere to use them. And the US is directly involved in all this, on the wrong side:

Quote
Most important, throughout the war, Saudi and Emirati jets have used U.S. midair refueling capabilities to keep up the pace of operations without having to return to a base. According to Pentagon statistics, the Air Force has refueled Saudi aircraft more than 9,000 times.
(http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-depetris-yemen-war-powers-resolution-20171009-story.html)

You'll find it difficult to find any evidence of Iranian fighter jets carrying out bombings, or Iranians refuelling any rebel aircraft in Yemen.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:22:03 PM by Banzai »

Gold

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2017, 03:27:10 AM »
Quote from: JohnRoberts link=topic=67066.msg851796#msg851796 date

 I am waiting for unintended consequences from the current mayor in NYC relaxing law enforcement. I grew up outside NYC so still have interest there too.

Although not many think he is a very good mayor the crime numbers have not gone up during his administration. There was opposition to stop and frisk in the police force. He also faces no serious opposition to reelection this year.

cyrano

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2017, 06:41:36 PM »
Help is on it's way:

http://www.myajc.com/news/crime--law/trump-administration-some-facing-arrest-may-still-buy-guns/I4yhVXMBHbPwSwKfUimJCP/

Yes! Even more guns! That's the answer!

Meanwhile, the 1 million number of cholera cases in Yemen has been surpassed. Not that this news will be on any US source, of course.

The US has also left UNESCO, under threat from the Israeli. Anti-zionist views can get you in jail in the USA and France.

And, no, it wasn't Israel who helped the CIA break into Kaspersky's labs. The Israeli were just watching while the Russians broke in.

Anyone who still believes all of this crap should have his head examined.
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 08:58:41 PM »
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Meanwhile, the 1 million number of cholera cases in Yemen has been surpassed. Not that this news will be on any US source, of course.

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The fact of the matter is there is gun violence and, we should address it even if it means giving up some things .  Hopefully there will be a solution.

Probably a good idea to take the state's guns away, right scott2000? Like you're suggesting would be in order for the populace in general? That would save some Yemeni from bombs and cholera, and we should address that even if it means giving up some things too, huh?

.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 09:15:44 PM by tands »
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2017, 09:22:16 PM »
Do you agree that the state's posession of weapons should be restricted for similar reasons as those you suggest are appropriate for the populace in general?
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2017, 10:23:09 PM »
Should those steps include restrictions on the state's access to weapons, in your opinion?
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

bluebird

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2017, 01:24:55 AM »
shut up TANDS your not in this! :P

I'll bite, Yes of course the state should have access to guns and even heavy weaponry. As much as I would like to think everything would be groovy without an armed police force, I just don't have enough confidence that the general public would be able to police themselves, or respect an unarmed police force. Maybe in rural areas but not in the big cities.

This seems pretty obvious, am I answering the right question?

Or are you talking about restricting street cops from carrying guns, but being able to call in armed officers if needed?
I think that might be a whole other debate. But that would be difficult here because there are already so many guns out there, you would have to disarm the people then disarm the police. And I think we already concluded its just not going to happen...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 01:30:49 AM by bluebird »

Re: The Second Amendment
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2017, 02:33:05 AM »
Well then?

  Given that both the state and police contain wackjobs that kill people unnecessarily (murder, I mean to say), and that the same is true of the general populace, why is it proper to restrict the general populace's access to weapons and not restrict the state's and police's, especially given that the state and police are doing a lot more murders than the general populace are, and a lot more arbitrarily? Why a double standard between american state, and american citizen if both contain wackjobs?
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21