Peluso 22 251 - you wouldn't believe...

ln76d · Nov 3, 2017

I received today Peluso 22 251 microphone to make something decent from it.

In a days i will upload some pics, schematic and other informations about this microphone.

For now i will tell you guys where's similarity to the ELA M251!
In the name! Nowhere else

This microphone is out of the chinese manufacturers standards - really!
For 1799 € (currently in Thomann) i would expect that it is at least quality of T.bone SCT-800 for 177€ - both are based on the same body and PCB (and other common parts).
In fact it's much worse than T.bone...

But!
I'm starting believing that Peluso is really skinning these chinese capsules!
Why?
Because i never found in any chinese edge terminated capsule so badly skinned diaphragms

Khron · Nov 3, 2017

Maybe i'm a bit of a "nihilist"(?), but... for whatever reason, i seem to draw this sick sort of pleasure / enjoyment out of this sort of "mythbusting"... ;D

What AvE (over on YouTube) is to the world of power tools, the audio world sorely needs a correspondent. I try to do my part with the means i have available (see blog), but i can't do it all

ln76d · Nov 4, 2017

It's not about "mythbusting" but rather to warn people about what they want to buy. If this microphone would cost max 500$ then we could turn a blind eye to the marketing talk and some shortcomings in the microphone.
At least in in his P67, he made custom circuit with new board - completely nothing to do with U67 except marketing talk and poorly designed circuit but still it was something different than just little bit screwed up chinese microphone.
Ok, here are pics of the circuit!
There's complete mess in the input topology (nothing to do with ELA M251)) One of the worse caps for the input - Wima FKS (really poor dielectric) and the value - 1.5nF - this makes audible mess in high frequency area - but hey lets eq hi freq in the worse possible way ever

Few dale caps and one russian metalised MŁT - probably to make a vintage "mojo" - not really, acts the same as other metalised resistors.
So what's left? The worse things in original chinese topology!
And there's lpf surprise - but about that later with the schematic

Using bright capsule, ultra high polarisation voltage, and input which boost hi-freq, he had to do something with that... Imagine how the phase looks like

Like on acid

Also left all original electrolytics everywhere.
Ahh...

ln76d · Nov 4, 2017

So here's capsule art!
Front diaphragm - unfortunately i can't catch all the beautiful details with the camera...
Surface is partially matt, there's partially visible backplate pattern and partially less gold coating which looks like scars...

ln76d · Nov 4, 2017

So i was hoping to swap the sides of the capsule and put the worse looking side on the back...
I was thinking - "thank's god" it isn't real CK12, so it's exactly the same from both sides...
There's also surprise from the backside...
I could catch only two points (one is barely visible on the picture) from three on the diaphragm (3rd is on the opposite side).
Poor diaphragm tension - from the left - under 2nd and 3rd screw.

Khron · Nov 4, 2017

Well, that's pretty much what AvE does with power tools

In his own words, he leaves the "feels good in the hand" reviews to the other (paid) reviewers. He takes the things apart, shows you what you get for your money, and comments (in a highly entertaining manner) on the internal features ;D

An example: https://youtu.be/2LLZyUe7-I8

ln76d said:
It's not about "mythbusting" but rather to warn people about what they want to buy. If this microphone would cost max 500$ then we could turn a blind eye to the marketing lie and some shortcomings in the microphone.

kingkorg · Nov 4, 2017

I really hope no one gets offended by this, and what i am about to say aplies to many other countries, but...

Fellow Americans can be very patriotic about anything that is made in USA. And they have a reason and right to be. When something gets praised in the states, rest of the world tends to just embrace it. While we owe a lot to american manufacturers, sometimes i feel that all it takes is to stick "Handmade in USA" or "Assembled in USA" or whatever in USA to a product and people will buy it and praise it.

Telefunken RFT mics are perfect example. I tried M80, AK47 and AR51. Those things sound like they are broken. Yes you can make a record with them, but you can do it with sm57 as well. Microphone Parts guy who is amazing, and i respect his work a lot is selling chinese capsules for 150$ just becouse he did QC. Come on! Telefunken is doing the same on their website. Ant i can go forever with these examples.

Like what is the difference between a Stratocaster made in Mexico or a Stratocaster made i USA by Mexicans. Companies are aware of this stuff.

On the other side i feel like Audio Technica and Røde can make what ever one can expect from a microphone and it will never be as good for some reason.

There are exeptions of course, Neumann, AKG... but i feel like Telefunken being involved could have impacted their status.

There is a slutty forum khm... that contributed to a lot of this.

Same thing here in Norway, it is almost impossible to find products from other parts of the world if there is a norwegian product that is equivalent. Economy has to keep going, and it's easiest if people believe domestic products are superior.

I don't think it's Peluso's fault. I never felt any of his replicas sounded anything like originals, but thats just me. I even know a guy who ripped capsule from his Røde K2 in order to put one of Pelusos capsules insted. I wanted to cry.

Khron · Nov 4, 2017

Case in point: https://youtu.be/NHCS7JXfuv0?t=21

kingkorg said:
Fellow Americans can be very patriotic about anything that is made in USA. And they have a reason and right to be. When something gets praised in the states, rest of the world tends to just embrace it. While we owe a lot to american manufacturers, sometimes i feel that all it takes is to stick "Handmade in USA" or "Assembled in USA" or whatever in USA to a product and people will buy it and praise it.

Ericbazaar · Nov 4, 2017

kingkorg said:
I really hope no one gets offended by this, and what i am about to say aplies to many other countries, but...

Fellow Americans can be very patriotic about anything that is made in USA. And they have a reason and right to be. When something gets praised in the states, rest of the world tends to just embrace it. While we owe a lot to american manufacturers, sometimes i feel that all it takes is to stick "Handmade in USA" or "Assembled in USA" or whatever in USA to a product and people will buy it and praise it.

Telefunken RFT mics are perfect example. I tried M80, AK47 and AR51. Those things sound like they are broken. Yes you can make a record with them, but you can do it with sm57 as well. Microphone Parts guy who is amazing, and i respect his work a lot is selling chinese capsules for 150$ just becouse he did QC. Come on! Telefunken is doing the same on their website. Ant i can go forever with these examples.

Like what is the difference between a Stratocaster made in Mexico or a Stratocaster made i USA by Mexicans. Companies are aware of this stuff.

On the other side i feel like Audio Technica and Røde can make what ever one can expect from a microphone and it will never be as good for some reason.

There are exeptions of course, Neumann, AKG... but i feel like Telefunken being involved could have impacted their status.

There is a slutty forum khm... that contributed to a lot of this.

Same thing here in Norway, it is almost impossible to find products from other parts of the world if there is a norwegian product that is equivalent. Economy has to keep going, and it's easiest if people believe domestic products are superior.

I don't think it's Peluso's fault. I never felt any of his replicas sounded anything like originals, but thats just me. I even know a guy who ripped capsule from his Røde K2 in order to put one of Pelusos capsules insted. I wanted to cry.

100% my words and thanks for this interesting thread.

RuudNL · Nov 4, 2017

About the first batch Telefunken M16/AK47: that was just an Apex460 with a Telefunken logo on it!
The only difference was the price!
http://recordinghacks.com/articles/telefunken-m16-and-apex-460-comparison/

ln76d · Nov 4, 2017

About other companies and their product later

Ok some measurements:

Main capsule polarisation voltage is 88,7V.
Back diaphragm polarsiation voltage (from omni to theoretical fig. 8 ):
- 0V
- 19,7V
- 38,7V
- 57,7V
- 76,6V (cardioid)
- 96,1V
- 115,7V
- 136V
- 157V

What's conclusion? There's no real cardiod and real fig. 8!
10V (for cardioid) and 20V (for fig. 8 ) is to high deviation!
In cardioid setup there's much more subcardioid pattern and in figure of eight supercardioid.
There's no option to set cardioid, because next setup is supercardiod.
So what we have - omni, 4xsubcardioid, 4xsupercardioid microphone!
Note that in most of chinese microphones you will get deviation around 2V not 10V-20V.
This doesn't matter after all, because it's faulty anyway

Owner of this microphone mostly use it in "cardioid setup" for vocal tracking. He noticed that after few hours, frequency response of microphone change badly. I noticed that after 4minutes. In pseudo fig.8 microphone sometimes generate nice mosquito noise! Diaphragm is to much stressed.
I wonder is the Peluso knows what he's doing?
Or this works like - hmm... i have cheap chinese microphone - what i can add and what change? Ok, lets put here one extra capacitor, here another (hmm... lets use higher value, definately will be better...), here lets change for some random dale resistors (everyone on gearslutz loves it!) which i have currently on my bench, and here put "my" (chinese made) capsule and transformer! A don't forget to use black hot glue for transformer and slam the wires with transformer shielding can!

Ericbazaar · Nov 4, 2017

ln76d said:
About other companies and their product later
Ok some measurements:

Main capsule polarisation voltage is 88,7V.
Back diaphragm polarsiation voltage (from omni to theoretical fig. 8 ):
- 0V
- 19,7V
- 38,7V
- 57,7V
- 76,6V (cardioid)
- 96,1V
- 115,7V
- 136V
- 157V

What's conclusion? There's no real cardiod and real fig. 8!
10V (for cardioid) and 20V (for fig. 8 ) is to high deviation!
In cardioid setup there's much more subcardioid pattern and in figure of eight supercardioid.
There's no option to set cardioid, because next setup is supercardiod.
So what we have - omni, 4xsubcardioid, 4xsupercardioid microphone!
Note that in most of chinese microphones you will get deviation around 2V not 10V-20V.
This doesn't matter after all, because it's faulty anyway
Owner of this microphone mostly use it in "cardioid setup" for vocal tracking. He noticed that after few hours, frequency response of microphone change badly. I noticed that after 4minutes. In pseudo fig.8 microphone sometimes generate nice mosquito noise! Diaphragm is to much stressed.
I wonder is the Peluso knows what he's doing?
Or this works like - hmm... i have cheap chinese microphone - what i can add and what change? Ok, lets put here one extra capacitor, here another (hmm... lets use higher value, definately will be better...), here lets change for some random dale resistors (everyone on gearslutz loves it!) which i have currently on my bench, and here put "my" (chinese made) capsule and transformer! A don't forget to use black hot glue for transformer and slam the wires with transformer shielding can!

88,7?!

This thread becomes more interesting with every post.

This is why every hobby technican make your own business today.

Khron · Nov 4, 2017

As the old saying goes - a penny saved is a penny earned ;D

RuudNL · Nov 4, 2017

What is that cheap ceramic capacitor on the tube socket doing?

ln76d · Nov 4, 2017

RuudNL said:
What is that cheap ceramic capacitor on the tube socket doing?

1st grid/plate feedback - chinese leftover.

At least chinese manufacturer used NP0/C0G

ln76d · Nov 5, 2017

Parts marked red are only difference between generic chinese microphone and Peluso 22 251.
Mentioned earlier 1.5nF Wima FKS at C4 is a" big no no", but additional 100pF from backplate to ground is a sin...

Add to this weak version of chinese edge terminated capsule, ~~6072~~ (see below), chinese transformer and you have "hi-end" microphone...

[EDIT]

Big sorry to John for accusation about 100nF caps after transformer! In fact he didn't use it, just left on the board, probably to keep the PCB look more busy

Still doesn't change the fact that this microphone sounds ugly

ln76d · Nov 7, 2017

This time you really wouldn't believe...

For setup new circuit i used original "Peluso" "6072A glass triode tube" - with hologram sticker "Peluso" - completely without model description or brand.
I couldn't set proper bias, still sounds bad - so what the hell?!?
I took Electro Harmonix 6072, which i'm not a fan - and what the hell?
I can setup bias and it sounds really good...

Same biasing point:
"Peluso" at the plate ca. 97V
EH ca. 75V
2x Mullard 12AT7 - 76V,
GE 6072a ca. 75V.
Then i took three 12AX7 and guess what!?!?
All three 12AX7 ca. 97V...
Conclusion?
Tube model from Peluso 22 251 specification is not what you will find inside microphone!
If you will look closer, tube looks like generic chinese microphone shuangangbangninja 12ax7.
I was hoping for electro harmonix in the worst scenario, but even looking only on the tube pins this 12ax7 looks cheaper than EH...

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/microphones/22251.html

I love the "reviews & demos" section!
Are these guys still in business??

Khron · Nov 7, 2017

In the words of AvE, that sounds like "peeling an onion - layer after stinky layer until all you're left with is tears" ;D

granger.frederic · Nov 9, 2017

RuudNL said:
About the first batch Telefunken M16/AK47: that was just an Apex460 with a Telefunken logo on it!
The only difference was the price!
http://recordinghacks.com/articles/telefunken-m16-and-apex-460-comparison/

Sorry but i don't have the same opinion !
maybe for the first batch...
But, i've tested some AK47 and some AR51 and all have selected (maybe custom) capsules since the begining...
they all show different frequency responses than their chinese sisters, and all were constant and decent sounding
i noticed upgraded components as well (styroflex,solid tantalum, better electrolytics and resistors, etc...) and also higher grade output transformers, bodys, and wirings...

i think that their prices are not that expensive for the quality (even if some components are made in china...)

ln76d · Nov 9, 2017

granger.frederic said:
Sorry but i don't have the same opinion !
maybe for the first batch...
But, i've tested some AK47 and some AR51 and all have selected (maybe custom) capsules since the begining...
they all show different frequency responses than their chinese sisters, and all were constant and decent sounding
i noticed upgraded components as well (styroflex,solid tantalum, better electrolytics and resistors, etc...) and also higher grade output transformers, bodys, and wirings...

i think that their prices are not that expensive for the quality (even if some components are made in china...)

If i make mistake, then correct me Fred, but from what i remember, few times you commented here something like except the Neumann capsules and headbaskets cheap microphone parts sucks.
So now the one of thecheapest type of capsules- 32mm k67 and Alctron headbasket is ok?

(no offend intension!)

For me they still sucks a little bit.
From 100% Alctron, most of us know what expect.
New, "better', versions have maybe better circuits, transformers and look is also better. But in fact with the same capsule - which is the weakest part, they could sound better. Headbasket sucks a litlle bit also.
Yeah - there's QC, and prices aren't so bad (but imo still not worth) when you compare it to Peluso which is similar price range (or even more expensive) and there's no QC at all

Peluso 22 251 - you wouldn't believe...

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