How similar really? Are clones same as the originals?

Do the 1176 & SSL clones sound the same as the originals (i've used both and they sound good) are they basically identicle clones of the originals? If not why not? If so why so? So if why not? Not if how so? Oh wait i've confused my self now....................... *; - |>

the gyraf ssl I built does not sound like the quad ssl Im am used to using, but it sounds great and am glad I took the time to build it. The gyraf 1176 specs a lundahl transformer, so I wouldnt expect it to sound the same as any 1176 ever made. Anytime you are dealing with a transformer balanced circuit, the transformers themselves are going to play a huge role in the sound that comes out of the box, so unless you match the transformers EXACTLY to the originals, your circuit clone is only going to get you so close. I wouldnt worry too much about what an original sounds like, I have a pile of vintage gear that all sounds different. I have a stack of 1272's that ALL sound different. Depending on how the stuff ages, etc, etc, etc, will really greatly impact the sound that comes out of the box. Dont worry about making it sound like the original, worry about making it sound good, which is a much better use of your time.

dave

And besides, why would you want to sound like everyone else? :green:

Building your own gear makes it uniquely yours. You can make decisions no company would allow you to make on their gear.

The good part of DIY is that each unit will sound different depending on the parts used. Diferent capacitors and transformers makes a very pronounced difference in the sound, sometimes.

And most of the "clones" here are not exactly like the originals.

I think the best part about DIY is that you have the opportunity to make the designs BETTER! Better spec components, perhaps a better PS, additional features, etc... There are people here doing some really cool things. Pay attention and you'll learn a lot! And don't be afraid to ask those "dumb" questions, because chances are many other people have the very same questions (myself included). I really like learning about the design, and experimenting on how to make it "better"--even though I might drive a few people crazy with questions: you guys know who you are...sowwwwwy :grin: )

The greatest aspect of this great group of people is their willingness to volunteer help (even though sometimes there's a tendency to get a little side-tracked :grin: ) and not make judgement on your skill level.

Once you dig in you'll soon realize it goes far beyond just "making it sound like the original."

Welcome, and enjoy!

Dont worry about making it sound like the original, worry about making it sound good, which is a much better use of your time.

Click to expand...

I second that. In the best of all possible worlds, you can make something as musically useful as the originals, maybe more so.

:sam: :guinness:

Interesting question. I ditto the comments above and add a story that just happened today:

I loaned my SSL clone to a friend who used it at the studio where he works alot and he left it there until he can finish up a project. Today, another engineer walked in, saw it (unlabeled front panel, mind you) and called my buddy to ask what it was. My buddy told him it is an SSL bus compressor clone and the other engineer wound up putting it on drums a flipping out because it sounded so cool.

This guy was used to the 'real thing' on an SSL 4000 that he's been mixing on for the past few years, and he said it sounded like the real thing 'on steroids', saying that it has more punch and more edge than the original. He actually preferred my clone and is now trying to talk me into making him one. (BTW I used the 2150 VCA's in it).

I'm sending him to gyraf.dk and to this forum to bone up on building one himself.

So, no, the clones may not sound quite the same, but in some cases (and to some ears) they can sound even better. :green:

Joel

I just spent the last 20 minutes ripping out all of the carbon resistors on a rev F 1176 which Im gonna replace with metal films along with new capacitors. So, Ive got and "original" which by the time Ive done will for my taste, hopefully sound better than the "original". Its all just parts. make a good sound.

dave

I think that's part of the fun of DIY. You can start with a design out there and modify it to make it your own. Or maybe make it as close to the original as possible. Sometimes it's hard or relatively expensive to get parts, or you can get something that's close for very little or nothing.

For example, I'm starting to build a Fairchild-ish compressor, using 6BA6 tubes (because they're available, cheap, and pretty close in performance). Will that affect the sound? Of course. And I've got Hammond 850 transformers lying around, so I'll use them. Of course, the iron sound will change. Found some 6GW8 tubes from an old Bogen PA amplifier, that'll do for a control amp - I need about 10 watts, roughly, they're from a 20 watt amp. Yea, it'll affect the sound, but that's ok. That makes it my own. Will it sound like a 660? Nope. Will it sound cool? Probably. Will it sound as bad as my (stock) Alesis 3630? Not a chance.

-Dale

The 1176 can be used as an example of how people often don't listen.

People frequently ask: "Does it sound like an 1176"? expecting a simple Yes/No answer.

Here at work we have two black-face 1176 units. Everyone assumes that thy're the same. They're not. I posted pictures of the insides at Kruz's site about a year ago. Different output transformers. No input transformer on one, completely different power supplies... and they sound different. Also, no two 1176's even of the same vintage and adjacent serial numbers track at all closely. The variation in the FETs sees to that!

99.xx% of the people who use the two 1176s here at work think they're the same. Only one single person in the last 5 years has come up to me and asked why one sounds brighter.

Since the Gyraf clone is a version of the later/latest iterations, it doesn't sound like the sought-after and highly-prized 'D' version. I'd expect it to sound crisper and more detailed and accurate than the 'real' version that it mimics if you use a Lundahl tranny on the output.

A good compressor?
-You betcha... -A really good one!

Like a 'real' 1176? -well, like a later 1176, and if you want to tear the output transformer out of an old broken Urei graphic EQ, then very like it.

If you don't notice the difference between D and F revisions (most people -as implied by my own observations- do not) then this is essentially identical.

The SSL clone is modified in that it has a single sidechain. The influence is a summed influence, instead of a "highest-channel-priority- as the orifginal was. It's cheaper, but does not sound the same. Jakob points out that the console in his studio is now modified to behave as the clone does, since it was apparently preferred.

Of course if you make a clone with cheap parts, don't expect it to sound better than the original.

These are great tools. Fully professional. I think that's about all that needs to be said. You can't describe 'sound' in words so let's leave it at that. -The old quote attributed to Elvis Costello, which says "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" is very true.

Build one and decide.

Keith

Hey Dave, when you are done replacing the carbon resistors in your 1176, could you post your impressions of the resulting sound? I have been contemplating doing the same thing.

I think anyone contemplating a DIY project for the first time worries about how much it will cost and how good it will sound. So much of Audio is full of myth and folklore that it's easy to think that you can't make a pro piece of gear without some magic touch.

The great thing about DIY electronics is that it strips away all the BS and leaves you with an understanding of the science of what goes into a quality piece of equipment.

I've built a number of clones but I really don't know how they compare to the originals because I don't have easy acces to any. I guess that's why i built my own. But I've learnt enough to know my gear is in every way functionally the same. It may impart a different colour but that's to be expected when you use substitute components. As long as you use the same quality you'll be doing fine.

byron

I wouldn't even be so kind as to call it 'myth & folklore', I'd call it pure bullshite & fashion. You could put an Alesis 3630 in a 1176 chassis and quite a lot of folks wouldn't find out....

There's is a lot of stuff in old gear that's just too dumb to clone/copy today, like odd (and often not really good) switches, inadequate PSUs, strange meters, trannies made of unobtanium. I'm all for improving..

I don't dig this hardware necrophelia at all. I'll be the first to admit I LOVE gear, but I'm not a collector. I think what's going on in the microphone biz is just plain stupid. And as long as it's got a lightning bolt 'N' it's automatically _much better_ . I've seen Helios routing modules go for silly money.. they're nuffin' in them :roll:

If one really is so concerned that the clones won't sound like the real deal, one should shut up and put down the money for the real deal..

'Vintage' have become such a stamp of approval (ebay :roll: ), that you could sell a turd as long as it's old enough. Vintage = old, not vintage = makes my record go gold and my dick four inches longer..

'Kay, I'm stepping off my soapbox now (vintage type, wanna buy it?)

steve-

the 1176 Im working on I got DOA so while I was replacing the caps, I figured Id just restuff the whole thing, no big deal. The whole board had 1/2 watt carbons, but I never got to hear them in there. Putting new resistors in there took maybe 20 minutes, so no big deal.

dave