Holy Grail Tube Vocal Mic - DIY or No?

Hi all!

I'm a singer/songwriter/engineer with some soldering and electronic-building experience, dipping my toes into the modding/building world. I'm basically looking to find the holy grail of tube vocal mics (for my voice, at least).  ;D

I have a vintage U87, which I adore, but I also miss that warm tube sexiness, and sometimes it's a touch too dark, and my SM7 cuts through the mix better (usually I'm going through a Focusrite ISA430 MKII into a Warm Audio WA76, then a WA2A, and finally an EQP-WA equalizer).

I'm weighing up a few options - I have an Avantone BV12, which I could mod (though I'm not quite sure where I'd start. Maybe a new capsule or upgraded transformer. I already put in an Electro-Harmonix tube); I could get an AMI U47 kit and throw in the best capsule possible (Thiersch M7, Beesneez, or something NOS?) and maybe a NOS EF14; or I could take the easy route and get a Warm Audio WA-47 (tempting because of the price and sound demos) or a Cathedral Pipes Notre Dame. From my research so far I haven't found enough information online about DIY U47 builds to be able to determine if I could build something that would sound as good as something pre-built/be worth all the time and money.  That said, I love the idea of being able to record through a unique microphone that I built and tailored specifically to my own voice. Plus this stuff is fun, and not enough people in my generation know how to solder or work with electronics, so I want to learn whatever I can!

I'd like to keep it as affordable as possible (<$2K), or I'd be adding Wunder CM7 or Flea to that list.

Does anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks so much.

Dan

...Oh, or, get a Warm Audio WA-47 and mod that. At $899, it could be a decent starting point. Though I have no idea what the insides look like.

I would get something from Stam before I went the warm route.

I'm very similar to you (31,singer songwriter, engineer, etc) trying to do everything on my own because that's the only way it will happen, with a somewhat limited budget. 

I built a d-ef47  with a maiku capsule and a cinemag nico(2461?  I forget the model).  I used the cheaper body from studio939 but upgraded the basket.

For my voice, this mic is freakin' perfect.  BUT, that can be different for everyone, however, this is a really special mic.

I've built 4 ribbon mics that sound killer, a u87 clone, the u47, a fet847, a D-251 clone with a Beezneez capsule, and I own C414EB P48, SM7b, RE20, PR40, a bunch of beyerdynamics.  The U47 clone is my go to vocal mic.

However, it is a pretty subtle difference from the previous go-to mics.  The big difference is I have a kind of sibilant annoying high end in my voice, and the 47 is just like that was perfectly eq'ed out.  I could record a good vocal on basically all the mics I listed and then add/subtract with EQ and end up in a similar place.  For me, I was paying for A) I wasn't going to be satiated without hearing myself through a u47 circuit, and B) convenience.  The 47 clone is inspiring because I can throw that mic up and have a great vocal.  I don't have to worry about eqing out sibilant weirdness.

Also, because I do lots of acoustic guitar with vocal recording, I've noticed the 47 seems to not get as funky with the phase relationship as other mics.  I basically set it up, and it just works and sounds great.  I usually use the 87 or c414 in figure 8 on the guitar, btw.  If you're not using fig 8 you should!

I kind of went on a mic shopping spree recently and built the 47, 87 and 251 in the last three months, so I'm still getting used to them and have been super busy and haven't gotten the chance to shoot them out much.  I'm very interested to seeing what the 251 can do (I finished it last week), but just based on a quick test, the 47 still wins for me, however the 251 seems to be like a bigger, clearer bolder version of the c414, and sounds KILLER on guitar cabinets.

This tune is big time in progress, this was just a sample vocal single take to let me try out some lyrics, but it is the 47.  quick doubles with the 87 https://www.dropbox.com/s/rcx6e3g8ginz77r/GTBA20180101v2Lyrics.mp3?dl=0

For a comparison, this is me on the sm7 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7eat9x1sattrzcg/Invisible%20Strings%20-%2020171030.mp3?dl=0 (I think, could be the c414, but I'm pretty sure it's the shure!)

This is a friend of mine and a more complete thing, but it was just a live performance in my room.  47 on vocal, 87 on guitar https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dqo3qltr7pqeml/20180101FalconerRoughMixTake3.mp3?dl=0

This is another friend who recorded this as a present for a friend of his, 47 on vocal c414 on guitar https://www.dropbox.com/s/87mvkgabzq1talm/20171214%20-%20GivemeAllyourlovetonight.mp3?dl=0

rockinrob86 said:

I would get something from Stam before I went the warm route.

I'm very similar to you (31,singer songwriter, engineer, etc) trying to do everything on my own because that's the only way it will happen, with a somewhat limited budget. 

I built a d-ef47  with a maiku capsule and a cinemag nico(2461?  I forget the model).  I used the cheaper body from studio939 but upgraded the basket.

For my voice, this mic is freakin' perfect.  BUT, that can be different for everyone, however, this is a really special mic.

I've built 4 ribbon mics that sound killer, a u87 clone, the u47, a fet847, a D-251 clone with a Beezneez capsule, and I own C414EB P48, SM7b, RE20, PR40, a bunch of beyerdynamics.  The U47 clone is my go to vocal mic.

However, it is a pretty subtle difference from the previous go-to mics.  The big difference is I have a kind of sibilant annoying high end in my voice, and the 47 is just like that was perfectly eq'ed out.  I could record a good vocal on basically all the mics I listed and then add/subtract with EQ and end up in a similar place.  For me, I was paying for A) I wasn't going to be satiated without hearing myself through a u47 circuit, and B) convenience.  The 47 clone is inspiring because I can throw that mic up and have a great vocal.  I don't have to worry about eqing out sibilant weirdness.

Also, because I do lots of acoustic guitar with vocal recording, I've noticed the 47 seems to not get as funky with the phase relationship as other mics.  I basically set it up, and it just works and sounds great.  I usually use the 87 or c414 in figure 8 on the guitar, btw.  If you're not using fig 8 you should!

I kind of went on a mic shopping spree recently and built the 47, 87 and 251 in the last three months, so I'm still getting used to them and have been super busy and haven't gotten the chance to shoot them out much.  I'm very interested to seeing what the 251 can do (I finished it last week), but just based on a quick test, the 47 still wins for me, however the 251 seems to be like a bigger, clearer bolder version of the c414, and sounds KILLER on guitar cabinets.

This tune is big time in progress, this was just a sample vocal single take to let me try out some lyrics, but it is the 47.  quick doubles with the 87 https://www.dropbox.com/s/rcx6e3g8ginz77r/GTBA20180101v2Lyrics.mp3?dl=0

For a comparison, this is me on the sm7 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7eat9x1sattrzcg/Invisible%20Strings%20-%2020171030.mp3?dl=0 (I think, could be the c414, but I'm pretty sure it's the shure!)

This is a friend of mine and a more complete thing, but it was just a live performance in my room.  47 on vocal, 87 on guitar https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dqo3qltr7pqeml/20180101FalconerRoughMixTake3.mp3?dl=0

This is another friend who recorded this as a present for a friend of his, 47 on vocal c414 on guitar https://www.dropbox.com/s/87mvkgabzq1talm/20171214%20-%20GivemeAllyourlovetonight.mp3?dl=0

Click to expand...

Hey man, thanks so much for this! It's so helpful to hear from someone else in the same boat. And it's so great to be able to hear a DIY 47 on male singer-songwriter vocals of a similar genre.

Your 47 sounds fantastic! A lot of clarity and weight, and presence. Do you remember what preamp you put it through? Great songs, too.
How difficult was the build, calibration and tweaking? Do you ever have 'gremlins' with it, like noise? Is there a particular reason you went for that version versus the AMI-Tabfunkenwork kit? Judging from your clips this kind of mic could be well suited to what I'm looking for also. I wasn't sure whether a 47-type would have enough presence for my vocals or not.
I've built a TubeDepot guitar amp, a simple JBL preamp, and some XLR and guitar cables, but have never tried a mic. I get some loud sibilants also, though I can get rid of them pretty transparently between the hardware de-esser on the ISA 430 MKII and FabFilter Pro-DS, but it's good to know it helps you tame them without you having to do any processing.

Interesting about Warm vs Stam. Why do you say that? I've been really enjoying my Warm outboard stuff since I got it a few weeks back. One reason I like the WA-47 is because of the body they use - it looks like an authentic reproduction, versus a lot of clones that use what seem to be generic bodies.

For reference, here's a live track in my (currently untreated) studio with vocals going through my 1971 Neumann U87 into my ISA MKII (KM184 on guitar, pointed right down at the sound hole):
https://youtu.be/NvzRawRQDMI
This was pretty much my dream vocal mic (I'm a big fan of Jeff Buckley's "Grace", and the vocal sound on that album), and it's a great one to have in the locker, but I'm aware that it can sound a bit too dark to really cut through on a more dense mix. I'm hoping once I treat the room it will have more focus. And perhaps it'd be better suited to a different preamp.

And another YouTube cover through my SM7 > ISA 430 MKII (KM184 > GAP73 on guitar)
https://youtu.be/fGrpnJnopFI?t=50

A much older original track through the Avantone BV-12 (in my Kaotica Eyeball):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpN1btiBxoQ
I wasn't using this one much at all since I got the U87, up until yesterday, when I put them side by side again on vocals and realised it actually totally holds its own.

And, for really basic reference, a straight up Beta 58 into my Apollo Twin (KM184 on guitar): https://youtu.be/9vMw7xMEuw0

These were all done before the I got the Warm outboard stuff. But here's a demo of another original electro side project thing I've been working on with vocals tracked through SM7B > ISA 430 MKII > WA76 > WA2A > EQP-WA all before hitting digital. Basically just low-passed, added reverb and called it a day (this is still unreleased):
https://soundcloud.com/dankrochmal/man-in-the-moon/s-Njh3j

I plan on doing a more scientific shoot-out once I have treatment in the room and can set all my mics up side by side. But I'm gearing up to record my second album and am hoping to decide on 'the perfect mic' before I start tracking vocals. On a side note, I am clearly a mic-a-holic and need help, haha. Keen to hear about your ribbons too - I don't have any yet, and can definitely see adding a few to my arsenal.

Thanks,
Dan

Kroc, where are you located? Do you have the option of renting some mics? If you can rent a 47esque mic and a c12 or Elam 251 you can get a better idea of what suits your voice.

DIY or No? That's a good question. If you need a mic soon you may end up rushing and ruining the mic. It's very easy to make a mistake in soldering, HiZ handling/cleaning, etc. If you can take your time researching and building then definitely go DIY. you'll get a great mic, skills and bragging rights. A mic is a big step up from a other DIY projects.

I absolutely love my 251. I built in a Beesneez body with a Beesneez CK12, 5 Star GE 6072 and a wet tant output cap. If it suits your voice it's hard to imagine a mic could sound better. I have not yet built and EF47, that may be my next project.

If you could only have one mic, it's hard to beat a 67 because of its versatility and ability to take EQ. It has some magic to it but not as in your face as a 47 or 251 style mic. I also feel like your 87 already covers some of the ground that a 67 would though.

I'm very experienced in diy and do tech work on the side for a bunch of bands/studios around here, so my experience is a bit different. 

I don't like building kits because I can source my own parts and usually save money - I probably only have $700 in my U47 (this is a guess, maybe more like $800, but still).

Warm is fine, but they do not follow the schematics 100%.  Usually I can diy source and build things that are 100% clones for a similar or lower price than they are charging.

Stam just takes all the diy stuff I and everyone else get from this forum and has it built and tested.  They make a reasonable profit and do good work (from the looks and everything I've heard), however, they're using the same parts I can get.  For example, their 47 is the same as mine except they sourced their power supply chassis from a chinese supplier (I drilled my own out of a hammond box.  It was a pain and I learned my lesson - I'll just order a power supply box from somewhere next time for the $100 or so.  The hammond box is $20 but I probably spent three hours screwing around with it and gave myself a blister using my metal snips on it!)  Mine has a gotham cable.

I used a maiku capsule and a cinemag, where the stam is using poctop's m7 and an ami transformer.  I ordered a pair of mullard ef80s from ebay for $15 and the first one I tried sounded great, is low noise and hasn't given me any trouble.  Basically all the mic bodies are coming from the same place for any of this budget stuff, they're all alctron chinese bodies.  The stam one is the same as the warm one I am pretty sure.

My recording was into my UA apollo and I used the Neve 1073 unison preamp.  I don't have any outboard other than an Audient asp880 for adding more tracks to the apollo.  I played all the other instruments on those tunes.

The mics aren't really that hard to build, however, they are super expensive and if you screw it up...  There are a lot of places it can go wrong and the instructions (thanks for the work guys, but just saying) are not the best.  There are multiple places where it would've been easy to make things clearer and I ended up looking at the schematic for a while and basically just guessing.  Although, now that I'm thinking about it that was probably the u87 kit.  The 47 is low in parts it is kind of hard to mess up.  The power supply was the big pain in the 47 build.

All of this being said, your u87 sounds great.  If your room isn't treated that would be way more important than adding a u47.  If you have truly NO treatment you will have flutter echoes, low frequency problems and high frequency abnormalities that will mess everything up and make it way harder to get good sounds.  You don't have to get too fancy here, just listen for problems and diy fixes can go a huge way.  I built large heavy gobos that made a huge difference in my room.


Remember, you can use EQ and sometimes dramatically.  If it sounds good, it is good!  I was a little hesitant to really commit much to EQ, but I read something from an old engineer, probably glyn johns or someone like that, about adding 10db of 10k to something, just cranking the knob on the helios desk.  For example, the first time I tried a ribbon mic, it was too dark and murky - but I've realized if I add in some of those condenser like highs back with EQ, ribbons sound SUPER smooth and glossy.  The transients are totally different and the whole vibe is very different, but I definitely don't find them murky after eq.  They also don't sound plastic or wierd, they just take the EQ - many mics, specifically dynamics and some condensers seem to always start sounding fake or weird with lots of eq.  My 87 and c414 both take eq very well

Delta Sigma said:

Kroc, where are you located? Do you have the option of renting some mics? If you can rent a 47esque mic and a c12 or Elam 251 you can get a better idea of what suits your voice.

DIY or No? That's a good question. If you need a mic soon you may end up rushing and ruining the mic. It's very easy to make a mistake in soldering, HiZ handling/cleaning, etc. If you can take your time researching and building then definitely go DIY. you'll get a great mic, skills and bragging rights. A mic is a big step up from a other DIY projects.

Click to expand...

Hi Delta Sigma! Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm two hours west of NYC, out in the forest. So there might  be somewhere, though I'm not sure what kind of places do that? I could certainly book an hour or two of studio time, but that would be more expensive and wouldn't allow me to test the mics in my own space alongside my equipment.

That approach would definitely help to dispel any illusions of what I think I ought to be using because 'X Used It On Y Record'.
In terms of other male singer-songwriters, I'm a big fan of artists like Jeff Buckley, Ryan Adams and John Mayer. Aside from Buckley using an 87 for Grace, I've heard great vocal recordings from all three done with 47s (and through SM7s with Adams and Mayer), and (taking into account that no two voices are the same, and I'm not trying to emulate anyone) they sing in a similar register, with similar production styles to what I'm going for. Heck, I even heard that the bleed from the 47 on Ryan Adams' vocals on "Heartbreaker" made up half the drum sound.
Hence why a 47-type has been at the top of my list. Seems like a pretty solid staple to have in the mic locker.

For sure, I always get itchy to finish a kit and use it, but I'm a perfectionist and want things done right. I'm basically looking for the fullest, most intimate, three-dimensional vocal sound possible. Within reason, of course. A crappy take is always a crappy take, and the source has to be right. And sometimes an SM7B is just what the doctor ordered if you're rocking out. I plan on doing a Hairball 1176 Rev D at some point too. Those things look tasty!

Is there somewhere I could start reading up to get a better understanding of the basics? I don't know anything about Hi-Z handling/cleaning. My Dad is an electronics engineer who has been tinkering with circuits stuff for over 50 years, so I have a help hotline, but he lives in Australia (where I'm from originally), so I can't show him stuff in person.

rockinrob86 said:

Stam just takes all the diy stuff I and everyone else get from this forum and has it built and tested.  They make a reasonable profit and do good work (from the looks and everything I've heard), however, they're using the same parts I can get.  For example, their 47 is the same as mine except they sourced their power supply chassis from a chinese supplier (I drilled my own out of a hammond box.  It was a pain and I learned my lesson - I'll just order a power supply box from somewhere next time for the $100 or so.  The hammond box is $20 but I probably spent three hours screwing around with it and gave myself a blister using my metal snips on it!)  Mine has a gotham cable.

I used a maiku capsule and a cinemag, where the stam is using poctop's m7 and an ami transformer.  I ordered a pair of mullard ef80s from ebay for $15 and the first one I tried sounded great, is low noise and hasn't given me any trouble.  Basically all the mic bodies are coming from the same place for any of this budget stuff, they're all alctron chinese bodies.  The stam one is the same as the warm one I am pretty sure.

The mics aren't really that hard to build, however, they are super expensive and if you screw it up...  There are a lot of places it can go wrong and the instructions (thanks for the work guys, but just saying) are not the best.  There are multiple places where it would've been easy to make things clearer and I ended up looking at the schematic for a while and basically just guessing.  Although, now that I'm thinking about it that was probably the u87 kit.  The 47 is low in parts it is kind of hard to mess up.  The power supply was the big pain in the 47 build.

All of this being said, your u87 sounds great.  If your room isn't treated that would be way more important than adding a u47.  If you have truly NO treatment you will have flutter echoes, low frequency problems and high frequency abnormalities that will mess everything up and make it way harder to get good sounds.  You don't have to get too fancy here, just listen for problems and diy fixes can go a huge way.  I built large heavy gobos that made a huge difference in my room.

Remember, you can use EQ and sometimes dramatically.  If it sounds good, it is good!  I was a little hesitant to really commit much to EQ, but I read something from an old engineer, probably glyn johns or someone like that, about adding 10db of 10k to something, just cranking the knob on the helios desk.  For example, the first time I tried a ribbon mic, it was too dark and murky - but I've realized if I add in some of those condenser like highs back with EQ, ribbons sound SUPER smooth and glossy.  The transients are totally different and the whole vibe is very different, but I definitely don't find them murky after eq.  They also don't sound plastic or wierd, they just take the EQ - many mics, specifically dynamics and some condensers seem to always start sounding fake or weird with lots of eq.  My 87 and c414 both take eq very well

Click to expand...

Hey Rockinrob,

Do you have any thoughts on single versus twin tube versions of the DIY 47 clones?
What are the most accident-prone parts of the build, in your opinion? I'm pretty confident with soldering components to a PCB board, but calibration is something I'm not too sure about. And I'm aware that working with tubes can be dangerous.
The AMI kit is pricier ($1250 for the 'premium' version they offer), but it comes with a pre-built PSU.  The kits appeal to me because I'm still not entirely fluent with circuit schematics and wouldn't feel confident building without any kind of guide. This is something I'd like to work on, but I'm not really sure where to start.

I guess with Warm v. Stam, Warm seem to be more ubiquitous on Reverb and eBay, so I was able to score the three pieces I got for great prices. Perhaps I could mod them myself (or send them to Revive Audio) with better components (though that'd be a whole other thread!).

Thanks about my U87. It's definitely got that beautifully intimate Neumann midrange/silky transient handling that seems to be hard to reproduce. Though I think the SM7 might be better matched to the ISA > WA76 > WA2A > EQP-WA chain. For sure, I've actually been sussing out a plan of action for my acoustics with the very helpful guys at GIK Acoustics and plan on putting in a bunch of treatment pretty soon to get my studio space sounding right. My studio room has a walk-in closet, for which I'll be getting a heap of 4" OC703 and turning it into a vocal booth. And usually I use it with a Kaotica Eyeball, which helps get rid of the reflections. Though I'm sure it'd sound better without it in a well-treated room.
And certainly you can crank the EQ, especially with ribbons. I guess what I'm looking for is the mic that needs the least EQ to begin with - I'd figure you'll always get a purer result the less you have to mess with the signal.

Thanks so much for all the great suggestions so far. This is giving me a lot to think about.

Kroc said:

Is there somewhere I could start reading up to get a better understanding of the basics? I don't know anything about Hi-Z handling/cleaning. My Dad is an electronics engineer who has been tinkering with circuits stuff for over 50 years, so I have a help hotline, but he lives in Australia (where I'm from originally), so I can't show him stuff in person.

Click to expand...

Start here:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=58771.0

I would also recommend making a ribbon microphone.

There are no active electronics involved. All you need is to make a driver (some magnets, very thin aluminum foil), a mount/housing and a ribbon mic transformer. Sounds simple, but it's not easy to get it just right - a good ribbon mic can be worth thousands of dollars.
Fine tuning/experimenting it will cost you mostly time, and not money.