So many cool microphones clones and no 1 audio samples / comparison

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r2d2

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
612
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Hi all,

very cool microphones clones in this forum section ,
U47 , M47, M49, C12 , U87 , U67 , KM184 , TLM149 ,… and for sure other more will come… (fortunately)  :)
very nice made bodies , capsules , pcbs , parts , etc ….
and also with very good docs , support , and related ,
really much compliments for work done  !!!

Unfortunately no 1 audio sample with comparison to original units ,  :(

how to get how much similar to the original units they are ?

peace.








 
maybe because no one cares about.
Okay I've to talk for myself.
I build a U87, U47FET and M49 clone.
What's the goal to compare them ?
I build mics cause I love audio electronics and soldering.
They sound good to me and I like my own build mics.
When I want the 100% sound of a Neumann, then I've to buy a Neumann, thats it.
I don't like these DIY vs original comparison, I've access to a U87 and a U47FET, but I don't care how close it sounds to my DIY or not.
That's my opinion about comparison with the original.
I trust my ears and I like my DIY mics and everyone who use my DIY mics also like them a lot.
 
+1 TillM.

This is pointless because there is many differences anyway with body, capsule, etc... they are usually different from the original circuits/products.

And this is without talking about the conditions of the recording for the comparison (change mic placement 1cm away and it can sound different).
 
Whats the range of tolerance on modern capsules for frequency response and distortion? Isnt it still pretty wide?
 
KrIVIUM2323 said:
And this is without talking about the conditions of the recording for the comparison (change mic placement 1cm away and it can sound different).

Yes, more difference than any other variable, by quite a long way.

 
As the guys said already!

Another thing is we are diy community not a gearslut type of consumer comunity.
Most of guys here just build these microphones and some probably just compare it for their own needs.
Maybe you could be the first sample guy here? ;)
Always is better to build something and test it by yourself than listening someone else samples.
Personally i don't watch shootouts, sometimes maybe just out of curiosity but never treat it as some kind of usable source of knowledge.
First i need to hear the source direct by my ears and in specific recording place nad conditions.
Most of commercial "shoutouts" are made just to help to sell you something.
Many times it doesn't show how exactly microphone will sound when you will use it.
Did someone ask themself why usual it's acoustic guitar and vocals (which usual fit better microphone which is a matter of advertise)? Distances from the source?
Maybe close distance miking and drum shootouts for example?!? This will definately show much more differences ;)

It always make me laugh, when people compare 50-70 old years capusles to some reissues or newly made inspired designs.
It's like compare a granny to a child. Everything aging due to years.
 
TillM said:
maybe because no one cares about.
Okay I've to talk for myself.
I build a U87, U47FET and M49 clone.
What's the goal to compare them ?
I build mics cause I love audio electronics and soldering.
They sound good to me and I like my own build mics.
When I want the 100% sound of a Neumann, then I've to buy a Neumann, thats it.
I don't like these DIY vs original comparison, I've access to a U87 and a U47FET, but I don't care how close it sounds to my DIY or not.
That's my opinion about comparison with the original.
I trust my ears and I like my DIY mics and everyone who use my DIY mics also like them a lot.
Much thanks for reply  " TillM " !!!
and compliments for the mics you built !

i agree about the fact that if Neumann sound wanted , buy Neumann ,

but for what i got here from threads , and "external" stores  for capsules , bodies , kits and related + all the hours of work required to complete a microphone clone  , 

at the end the total moneys cost is important  (in my humble opinion) ,
and what about if a day the used  "anonymous" cloned microphone have to put for sale ?

how much moneys should be lost ?

seem that it is not like get to test and resell as exdemo a  Shure SM57 ……

or buy an original  used Neumann (in perfect condition) and resell it after a period in same condition ,

in my humble opinion a good deal for a microphone clone would be no more than 400-450 bucks
all the time hours required for get info , docs , parts , helps from forum ( not always provided  :'( - Apart / Not included ,
(for sure not few ! ) .

But :
If some  type of "warranty" were included about the sound  similarity to the original (90-95% at least)
and about the (true)  sound comparison is the only "way" about ,
in my humble opinion  the good deal could be about 600-650 bucks.

But the same , for get the original U47 sound , the original VF14tube is essential !!!
No original VF14 , no original true U47 sound !!! (and other Neumann mics designed with that tube)

And (again) beware from tons of fakes VF14 around , overall on the web !!!
(they keep or reproduce the original "Helmet" enclosure-can-box…  but Fake tube  inside !!! )

Different thing is about the U87 , KM184 , ( no tubes issues )
and  TLM149 (relatively much easy to match a tube much next as possible to the original )

about TLM149 , i had various chances to use it , and it is a very nice mic , even if it does not drive me crazy ,
but the original U47 tube is another dimension (in my (and many others) humble opinion),

About U87 , KM184 , AND TLM149 clones , probably they can reach so high " % " equality to the original (no VF14 issue here  :) )
have to say that i had various different U87 under "control" (same "flat" preamp),
and no 1 sounds like the others …( so fun about …)
the differences was mostly on mid-high frequencies range , and also up to 15%  (probably by capsules condition-usury…)
tough the "typical" type of sound was the same,

and if the U87,KM184,TLM149 clones are about 95% next to the original
and total parts cost is around 350-400 bucks for 1 U87 , and-or 2 KM184
(all hours time (not few) required for complete the mics excluded)
would be a good deal .

back to topic , any audio comparison about ?

ps
found (on fly) a comparison about U47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAhmWZ97EkQ
 
ln76d said:
As the guys said already!

Another thing is we are diy community not a gearslut type of consumer comunity.
Most of guys here just build these microphones and some probably just compare it for their own needs.
Maybe you could be the first sample guy here? ;)
Always is better to build something and test it by yourself than listening someone else samples.
Personally i don't watch shootouts, sometimes maybe just out of curiosity but never treat it as some kind of usable source of knowledge.
First i need to hear the source direct by my ears and in specific recording place nad conditions.
Most of commercial "shoutouts" are made just to help to sell you something.
Many times it doesn't show how exactly microphone will sound when you will use it.
Did someone ask themself why usual it's acoustic guitar and vocals (which usual fit better microphone which is a matter of advertise)? Distances from the source?
Maybe close distance miking and drum shootouts for example?!? This will definately show much more differences ;)

It always make me laugh, when people compare 50-70 old years capusles to some reissues or newly made inspired designs.
It's like compare a granny to a child. Everything aging due to years.

Thanks to all guys for post ,
if some (not all) of the guys that have built 1 or more mic clone post a"Flat" audio sample just as well
with short description about preamp, AD converter, etc.. setup used for the test example ,
would not be a positive "add-on" to the projects ?

About the fact that many build the mic clones only for test or personal "pleasure"
i have some real difficulty to believe that they like to put "away" many hundreds of bucks……
anyway they can do all that they like ,  :)
(sellers apart)



 
Hi
+1 TillM
To speak for myself, I want to learn how the tech I use for recording works.
I also think that most diyers don't have measuring equipment (anechoic chamber etc.) as mic manufacturers (i.e. Neumann) have to assure same specs .
I have several beyerdynamic mics and every microphone comes with his own frequency response printed out.
Which means that even with tight control there is some tolerance also in pro manufacturers microphones.

So I settled on trying to tweak the circuit to my liking (and best understanding :eek:).

Cheers
Moshe

 
lkipod said:
…..To speak for myself, I want to learn how the tech I use for recording works.
I also think that most diyers don't have measuring equipment (anechoic chamber etc.) as mic manufacturers (i.e. Neumann) have to assure same specs .
and i have same opinion about ……(to have the setup for get a transparent true  frequency response "track" )
but an audio sample with short setup description used for track it , would not be "negative". ( just as well ! ,  "sellers" apart)

lkipod said:
I have several beyerdynamic mics and every microphone comes with his own frequency response printed out.
Which means that even with tight control there is some tolerance also in pro manufacturers microphones.
….. frequency response printed out = something that we can call "seriousness" ?  :)
peace
 
ln76d said:
………...compare 50-70 old years capusles to some reissues or newly made inspired designs.
It's like compare a granny to a child. Everything aging due to years.

Here the example about how to compare ( seriously )  old vs new (same as for original vs clone)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-84WhqZdx0

and just as well !

ps :
more comparison about other mics in the same page .
(again) just as well !  ( "car dealers" apart )
 
I find it amazing that people in the states can rent almost any mic for about 50 bucks. If I had that opportunity here in Norway I would certainly compare my mics to those. Finding someone in Norway who is willing to rent or loan  c12 or elam is impossible. And traveling around the country is tricky because of geography.

But on the other hand as others said, it's about making stuff, and after few built/modded mics you get to find out what works, and sounds great and what doesn't. I don't believe you need an original to know what sounds good.
 
And the both example shootouts are exactly this what i wrote before - for me it's totally useless, but if this works somehow for anyone then i don't mind ;)
 
r2d2 said:
….. frequency response printed out = something that we can call "seriousness" ?  :)
peace

What I meant was that even between mics produced to a tight standard in a professional facility there are deviations in frequency response (and sure other specs too).
It is also well known that two vintage M49s can sound pretty different from each other due to different environment, aging etc.
So there is not much sense in comparing a diy mic with a new m7 capsule and a vintage mic with a 50 year old capsule (as In76d already pointed out)
Cheers
Moshe
 
I never liked vocal shootouts only. Vocals have very little overtones in the range where mic differ most.

However, overdriven guitars show perfectly huge differences as they are almost white noise. Drums and acoustic guitars are great as well.

I did this shootout with guitar cab, and the differences are huge, while this same test would be almost pointless with vocals only:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3niXNz3NL8

And this is modded md1b after ln76d recipe, against the real thing. Basically a 100 bucks mic with few extra caps and resistors. I don't need it closer to real u87 ever...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jXq_JLj90k

And awesome Ruud's mic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nisvobb0zPA
 
I don't get the impression that microphones built within this community are intended for mass production or with re-sale in mind.

Mass produced products have to perform in an expected way. Branding, model names and charts are part of the information so that a customer can decide which tool for the job. A good tool can get a good re-sale later, helping with the return on investment. Somewhere in this the shoot outs and reviews fit in.

With DIY all bets are off. The end result depends a lot on the intentions, quality of the ingredients and experience of the builder. Grandmother usually cooks best. But her food is not for sale. It is for necessity and love.
 
I don't think any of us would bother posting audio tests, i mean if we're building a clone of a say u47 then we'll have done our level best to study just about every aspect of the schematic, many of us have worked extensively with the originals.

I guess we've probably all gone way beyond the comparing mic shoot outs and are now at the point of discussing whether a PIO filter cap is better than a poly one. Once you're into that kind of nerdery there's no going back!

Ultimately group DIY was founded and is frequented by people that don't like taking no as an answer. 20 years ago you'd hear from AKG that building a brass CK12 capsule exactly as the original was ludicrously cost prohibitive. Tim Campbell refused to accept that as a good enough reason so set about making a recreation, now his is considered one of the best reissues - so much so that flea use it in their premium models.

Tim's curiosity and refusal to take no as an answer then inspired more people - Ekic Heiserman, Ben Sneesby - they've all created their own beautifully engineered ck12 capsule. We've gone from the unobtainable to the buildable - that the diy spirit for you

Because of the like of the type of person you'll find at group DIY we've gone from never being able to have transformers of a quality you'd find in the original Neumanns to having FABs excellent offerings and now member Moby, has managed to have an alloy similar to older Neumann transformers reproduced to try to get even closer to the source!

No one here is interested really in impressing you with the sound of their mic. We all reached a point where we'd rather build and get closer to the specs we want than pay outrageous sums and feel ripped off when we open them up.

 
I found some samples I load up in the Maiku capsule thead.
Because you ask about samples.
This is my diy U87 with Cinemag transformer and Maiku K87.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxd1as7x44uumji/OverheadsMaiku%20K87%20U87diy.wav?dl=0

...and my U47FET with Sowter Transformer and Maiku K47 capsule.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x93s3rs59crkwca/Kick%20OutMaiku%20K47%20U47FETdiy.wav?dl=0

U87 as stereo Overhead pair and U47FET as outside bass drum mic.
I don't know which preamp I use for the U87. Could be Hairball Lola with 918 DOAs or my API312 clone.
The U47 is definitely with my API312 clone with APP14GE DOA, I pushed the input a bit harder.

both without processing.
But now you have the samples and that's it. They will not help you. Or even help any other guy here in the forum.
As Timjag and many other people already told it and I told it you too. I love this forum, because no one cares about gear talk and sound talk. Many people just like audio electronics and have fun playing with the schematics.
I think no one build stuff here in this forum to save money, cause when you want to build mics, preamps, compressors and so one to save money, than you are on the wrong way.
Yes you save a bit money, but it's not so much you maybe think of.
 
Not caring about gear or sound? Hu?

Could not disagree more!
Why do we clone nuemann and not mxl?
Rare is it that diy people have the ears of a working studio engineer,  I value what I learn from them,  Think your ears and knowledge of mics and the end product, sound files, you know better than  say eddy Cramer? Chris lord ? Who have produced more music than many of us will,  Trying to trash both is very short sighted,  a electronic engineering echo chamber is tubeless, all  solid state, and better ummm on paper anyway,  like the whole tml line.

If you claim to clone, sound file shootouts back up that claim,
It’s very very hard thing to do, and I think the capsule has a great deal to do with it, nuemann has got that down, and charge a ton for it, I have yet to see a capsule plot like a nuemann capsule, even with the crude system I use,  the difference is apparent, granted I have not tried them all, I can not afford to,  so I learn from what others say, look at what they are using, listen to every shootout I can, and then sort through that data, hardly worthless.  Echo chambers and not listening to anyone is indeed worthless! Imho.
I am Gladly still learning and in my mid 60s




 
R2d2, I wish it were so easy. Just TOO many variables for me to make comparisons between originals and copies/inspired builds worthwhile.

Regarding copies (don’t like using “clones”, cause they aren’t) - the capsule, for me, is 90% of the battle, followed by transformer and tube. You get a GREAT capsule, and everything gets easier. I’ve tried all kinds of component swaps, but capsule changes are the most dramatic. Period.
 

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