80hinhiding

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2018, 09:19:19 PM »
I don't think anyone is being gearslutty here Bluebird, are they??

I would like to point out not all converters and accompanying circuitry are equal.. so one may produce differences that are audible/able to be felt while another may not.  Some may run better at lower rate than another at a higher rate, etc etc etc.

I would not be the least bit surprised if the audible frequency range was affected by running a converter at a rate of 192.  I would be surprised if it doesn't.. have some impact on the converter performance for the audible range (varies for everyone).  Good or bad.. and every other possibility in between.

Do you have sample files on hand we could compare?

Adam


bluebird

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2018, 10:04:45 PM »
I don't think anyone is being gearslutty here Bluebird, are they??

Nope.

I would like to point out not all converters and accompanying circuitry are equal.. so one may produce differences that are audible/able to be felt while another may not.  Some may run better at lower rate than another at a higher rate, etc etc etc.

Welp, like I said we DID test different converters (Digidesign, Apogee, Lynx, Prism) whatever the current multi channel models were at that time, 6 or 7 years ago I think? And again no one could reliably pick one converters transfer over another when level matched and guesses tallied. The pick in the end was the blue/grey Digidesign 192's. The thinking was, if no one could tell the difference, we might as well use what the studio had the most of...192's.


I would not be the least bit surprised if the audible frequency range was affected by running a converter at a rate of 192.  I would be surprised if it doesn't..

Well if someone told me what I told you, I would think the exact opposite. That was the whole point of the story! I was trying to convince you that 192K is a waste of your time and energy, not to mention hard drive space.

Ultimately I was giving this thread my time for YOU. And at the end of it all, you want to believe exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to prove to you, Lol.

Again not trying to be an official know it all here, Just sharing an experience that I think should have some value to you considering the time and effort your going to spend on your mixer. I'm telling you don't do it. Spend your time and money on things that will actually have an impact on your recordings.

Do you have sample files on hand we could compare?

No I don't sorry.

I thought Dan Lavry's white papers on sampling rate were  pretty common knowledge around here. This guy is WAY more intelligent and qualified to explain the ridiculousness of 192K sampling rate.
I'll just let him take it from here...
http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-theory.pdf



80hinhiding

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2018, 10:17:25 PM »
I said I wanted to find a way of trying 192 rate (without much hassle), and asked if anyone knew how to do it.  This led to pages upon pages of debate on whether or not it's worth it, or if it's even audible....

I'll continue on with what I've got... and try it when I get the chance sometime.

Adam


abbey road d enfer

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2018, 05:31:27 AM »
I said I wanted to find a way of trying 192 rate (without much hassle), and asked if anyone knew how to do it.  This led to pages upon pages of debate on whether or not it's worth it, or if it's even audible....
You wrote: "not all converters and accompanying circuitry are equal.. so one may produce differences that are audible/able to be felt while another may not.  Some may run better at lower rate than another at a higher rate, etc etc etc."
 The logical conclusion is that, if you tried a converter at 192, you would not evaluate 192k SR per se, but you would be first of all evaluating a particular converter.
Indeed, i would think there is a difference between a good Single Speed converter think Benchmark) and a weird 192kconverter (e.g. Icon Cube).

Then "I would not be the least bit surprised if the audible frequency range was affected by running a converter at a rate of 192.  I would be surprised if it doesn't.. have some impact on the converter performance for the audible range (varies for everyone)."
Well, I've measured a number of 192k converters (trying - and failing - to find one suitable for measurements up to 80-90kHz), but, apart from the Icon Cube, that has frequency response anomalies at all SR, the others have no differences whatsoever in the 20-20kHz, whatever the SR.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

john12ax7

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2018, 06:23:17 AM »
So do I. I check regularly this site
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
for updates, and I see that Samp/Seq is never in the winning position. I have tried once to convert a file with Audacity (supposed to be one of the best); I couldn't justify the extra work.

I've looked at that too and been surprised.  I've always figured (perhaps incorrectly) that since sequoia is somewhat of a staple in mastering that it's SRC would be top notch. 

john12ax7

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2018, 06:35:13 AM »
Welp, like I said we DID test different converters (Digidesign, Apogee, Lynx, Prism) whatever the current multi channel models were at that time, 6 or 7 years ago I think? And again no one could reliably pick one converters transfer over another when level matched and guesses tallied. The pick in the end was the blue/grey Digidesign 192's. The thinking was, if no one could tell the difference, we might as well use what the studio had the most of...192's

The different makes of converters was not mentioned before,  at least not explicitly.  I find it rather surprising that no differences were heard between converters.  In my (albeit subjective)  experience something like lynx aurora and apogee ad/da16x have a very different sound.

john12ax7

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2018, 06:45:38 AM »
Well, I've measured a number of 192k converters (trying - and failing - to find one suitable for measurements up to 80-90kHz), but, apart from the Icon Cube, that has frequency response anomalies at all SR, the others have no differences whatsoever in the 20-20kHz, whatever the SR.

Are you strictly talking frequency response? Or just measurable differences in the 20-20k realm? In my experience something like an IMD test with 18k and 19k tones makes it very easy to measure differences.

ruairioflaherty

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2018, 06:48:48 AM »
If you thought politics made people upset?!

There's a great Podcast from Seth Godin called Akimbo and on a recent episode he makes the case for accepting the power of placebo.  If one expects converter X or sample rate Y to sound better it will.  So go ahead and enjoy whatever it is that floats your boat, the "difference" may or may not travel outside of your studio but it probably won't be noticed in the negative either.

All that said I've spent a lot of time on this and if you care take the time to do some tests. 

On 192k I have yet to hear it sound better and I have a lot of heavyweight Grammy winning friends who swear that it does, several recording in DXD - 384k.  It doesn't seem to sound worse to me but I'm happy at 96k.


abbey road d enfer

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2018, 11:54:32 AM »
Are you strictly talking frequency response? Or just measurable differences in the 20-20k realm? In my experience something like an IMD test with 18k and 19k tones makes it very easy to measure differences.
I was interested only in frequency response, since my quest was for measurement.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

Newmarket

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2018, 04:37:17 AM »
96Khz seems to be doing a decent job of preserving a signal that comes off of tape.  I figured 192Khz might do even better.. to leave fewer gaps. 
A

There are no 'gaps' . - due to the reconstruction action of the DAC filtering.
There is quantisation error - reduced by increased number of bits and dependent on dither applied.
With increasing sampling frequency the filter requirements mean that there can be greater temporal accuracy in the audio band.


JohnRoberts

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2018, 09:37:32 AM »
Are you strictly talking frequency response? Or just measurable differences in the 20-20k realm? In my experience something like an IMD test with 18k and 19k tones makes it very easy to measure differences.
My favorite test....  ;D back in the late 70s I modified my Heathkit SMPTE IMD tester to use 19kHz:20kHz  1:1 (instead of the stock 60Hz and 7kHz that was too easy). Back then I used this on analog paths (great for parsing out performance concerns in phono preamps).

While perhaps not obvious, the summed 18k and 19k tones will exhibit a rate of change equivalent to 37k. While this can occur naturally with complex music signals it rarely does.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

abbey road d enfer

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2018, 08:35:06 PM »
While perhaps not obvious, the summed 18k and 19k tones will exhibit a rate of change equivalent to 37k.
Yes, two -6dB tones would conjure the same Slew Rate as a single 0dB tone in these conditions; I'm not sure it is more stress to the amplifier, but it makes detecting the non-linear by-products easier.

Quote
While this can occur naturally with complex music signals it rarely does.
It does happen with cymbals.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
"The important thing is not to convince, but to give pause for thought." (B. Werber)
Star ground is for electricians.

Khron

Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

JohnRoberts

Re: AD/DA Converters
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2018, 10:15:24 AM »
Yes, two -6dB tones would conjure the same Slew Rate as a single 0dB tone in these conditions; I'm not sure it is more stress to the amplifier, but it makes detecting the non-linear by-products easier.
 It does happen with cymbals.
That's why I didn't say never....

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...


 

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