Bock/Soundelux capsules?

Does anyone here know who is making capsules for Bock/Soundelux? I'm curious. They don't make their own, right?

797Audio
MBHO

Thanks Banzai. I'm going through one of my semi-annual infatuations with the idea of picking up a U195 and when I recently heard a comparison with an 87ai, it had a smoother top on it that just kinda made me think of 3u's W1 capsule so I figured I'd ask here knowing somebody would have the skinny on it... and that finding out would probably squash my infatuation for the time being.

U195 used 797Audio's K67.

Might have changed for the new one.

Aw damn... now my brain is starting to wonder what a u195 would sound like with a Heiserman. Stupid brain.

Wordsushi said:

Aw damn... now my brain is starting to wonder what a u195 would sound like with a Heiserman. Stupid brain.

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Heiserman capsules are good sounding, kind of vintage flavour.

I emailed Bock Audio and they are denying the u195 uses the 797 K67, but won't reveal where the new u195's capsule comes from.

So, I emailed back and asked if it was a 3u W1 capsule. If I get a response, I'll post it here. 

I spent a week with David on his booth at NAMM. This subject never came up but we spoke about capsules the whole time. I'm pretty sure the U195 capsule isn't any longer chinese and may very well be an MBHO capsule now as they make all his other capsules.

Wow thats a pretty blatant rip off!! 

Thanks Tim. Would seem just from a practical and economic standpoint that if all their other capsules are made by MBHO, why would they source this one from elsewhere unless it was really special... and if it were special, have the marketing reflect as much... so I'm inclined to believe your theory.

And damn, man that 797 is totally a rip.

797 audio k67 and c12 capsules are fenomenal. Got the bad name because of Behringer and Studio Projects. Wrong circuits. And the fact they cost 30$ doesn't help.

I made u67, u87 and elam251 mics with them. They are f#*"ing amazing with tuned circuits.

And there has to be a reason why so many companies opted for these capsules in the past. But one has to start using and trusting their own ears and disregard the price.
I think Heyne said once he thinks they are actually improved design of originals. 797 has serious history behind them, military etc...

They are also crazy consistent.

I do hold the 797 capsules in regard. I have one here that I like. My understanding is that years ago, before starting 3u, Mr. Guosheng Zhang designed most of those capsules, especially their k67 variant.

I am intrigued by the U195 being Mr. Bock's evolution of the u87, and the clips I've heard sound really good to my ears. I think it could be a nice addition to my toolbox, but I'm not quite ready to snap one up on a whim... not quite yet. I have to track one down to try out when I get the time, so in the interim I've been doing this kind of half-assed desktop sleuthing to get a better idea of the capsule.

FWIW, David Bock wrote me back to deny the u195 uses a 3u capsule so I'm fully inclined to believe Tim Campbell's above-mentioned theory of their origin. While the 3u W1 is a great capsule, it's not exactly right for me for my specific work needs, so Mr. Bock's elimination of that theory keeps my interest alive... for now.

Actually the story I know about 797 comes from my friends at Microtech Gefell.  They told me that under communism they were sent to China to help improve chinese microphone technology. The company they helped became 797.

Tim Campbell said:

Actually the story I know about 797 comes from my friends at Microtech Gefell.  They told me that under communism they were sent to China to help improve chinese microphone technology. The company they helped became 797.

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Tim, Wow that is definitely super interesting to me and makes a lot of sense this could indeed be the origin. 797 is government owned and operated so that seems like a very likely scenario given the era this would have happened.

Oy, why am I not surprised. Ironically, similar to how the words "crisis" and "opportunity" are the same in the Chinese language, the Chinese symbols for "copyright" and "fair game" are identical and look somewhat like a man being bent over a workbench.

And all the modern companies that make legendary Neumann and Akg mic replicas today, and sell more of those than original companies? And not just mics. Just saying...

Today's market has nothing to do with fair game unfortunatelly. Most of western companies do this as well, in more profound way though.

Tim Campbell said:

Jakob Erland and I were on 797's booth once talking to them about their products. They opened a laptop to show us their upcoming preamp. It was a schematic of Jakob's G9 from his website with his name on it. We pointed to his name on his badge and the name on the schematic and told them it was his. They didn't understand our point

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I have a vendor who’s done a ton of business in China and has a Chinese wife. He taught me some things:

- The Chinese are raised as socialists their entire life. They have no real grasp of personal ownership. Everything belongs to everybody. He could not stress this enough, and said it’s nearly impossible for us to grasp how truly different we are in this regard. There is no  real legal, moral or social penalty for appropriating anyone else’s ideas.

- He gave this example of a social situation and how our cultures differ. “Imagine there’s q long line to get into a popular restaurant, and someone cuts into the front of the line. In America, there would likely be some comments along the line of ‘hey, WTF are you doing, wait your turn like everyone else’, maybe even a brawl. In China, no one would say a word. Instead they would all be thinking ‘maybe that will be me next time’. Lesson - what we would consider rude is socially acceptable in China.

I own a very small company that is a super niche business. 10 people. A few years ago, I started getting texts and emails from friends at the InfoComm tradeshow saying “I didn’t know you have a Chinese subsidiary”. We don’t. A guy in China started a copy of our crappy little company! Same name with one letter changed, copied our logo. We’re old guys, so we didn’t have a FaceBook page. Wrong, turns out we did - this guy had used our name and was directing people to him! I used to have a more lassiez faire attitude about the Chinese - no more. As a friend of mine said “they want to eat us - raw.” I could not agree more.

We don’t need to worry about a Chinese military invasion - they’re already here. It’s a financial invasion, and we just open the doors and invite them in.

AusTex64 said:

I have a vendor who’s done a ton of business in China and has a Chinese wife. He taught me some things:

- The Chinese are raised as socialists their entire life. They have no real grasp of personal ownership. Everything belongs to everybody. He could not stress this enough, and said it’s nearly impossible for us to grasp how truly different we are in this regard. There is no  real legal, moral or social penalty for appropriating anyone else’s ideas.

- He gave this example of a social situation and how our cultures differ. “Imagine there’s q long line to get into a popular restaurant, and someone cuts into the front of the line. In America, there would likely be some comments along the line of ‘hey, WTF are you doing, wait your turn like everyone else’, maybe even a brawl. In China, no one would say a word. Instead they would all be thinking ‘maybe that will be me next time’. Lesson - what we would consider rude is socially acceptable in China.

I own a very small company that is a super niche business. 10 people. A few years ago, I started getting texts and emails from friends at the InfoComm tradeshow saying “I didn’t know you have a Chinese subsidiary”. We don’t. A guy in China started a copy of our crappy little company! Same name with one letter changed, copied our logo. We’re old guys, so we didn’t have a FaceBook page. Wrong, turns out we did - this guy had used our name and was directing people to him! I used to have a more lassiez faire attitude about the Chinese - no more. As a friend of mine said “they want to eat us - raw.” I could not agree more.

We don’t need to worry about a Chinese military invasion - they’re already here. It’s a financial invasion, and we just open the doors and invite them in.

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We got a complaint that this pose is racist, while off topic and a little hyperbolic it is mostly accurate about some of the cultural differences (not about eating us raw), but about trading favors for privilege (like cutting line).

In Chinese culture copying somebody else's work is considered clever not dishonest. Hopefully they will develop more western ideas about IP as they get more of their own to lose.

Lets keep it between the lines and our cultural discussions in the brewery.

JR

So Germans give technology to Chinese to make and improve capsules. Telefunken (or Manley, or Soundelux, or Pearlman, Microphone Parts, Neve or who ever) buys them for less than 30$ piece to make rip offs of german mics and sell them for 1500$+++ claiming that "warm, vintage" comes from QC, coupling capacitors and hand made bodies made in western countries. And now it's the Chinese who invade and play dirty!?!?!?

And David is not happy with 797?!?! Wtf?!

I have rich history in retail and marketing with famous American/Japanese company, and both sides are interrested in only one thing - profit. No body is invading anyone, it is the way most companies operate, dog eat dog, it is simple as that. Most of big ones are guilty of that. And i know how hard it is for people who play fair to accept it.

In the end, if you make a unique quality product like Gyraf, or Tim, no facebook page nor logo can really damage your company. On the other hand both Gyraf mic and CT12 are based on something that allready exists.

However if you make products like Telefunken RFT, or Neve's recent microphone with 30$ capsules you might be in trouble.

It was I who reported post as racistic, as "chinese invading and eating people alive" is in my book terrible thing to say, and can't imagine how an actual person thinking and believing that might feel inside. But that might be cultural difference again, i am European and dont feel paranoid about Asians.

If someone should be insulted it is Neumann, Akg, and companies who invented the whole thing. But guess what, they don't even care.

AusTex64 said:

I have a vendor who’s done a ton of business in China and has a Chinese wife. He taught me some things:

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Should have stopped right there – having a Chinese wife or doing business in China doesn't mean a person understands China or the Chinese. Besides, these kind of generalizations mean nothing; there are many western examples of audio companies copying and taking what isn't theirs.

About Bock, if you look at his new U195, it still uses parts from 797Audio. The list of companies who use 797 or their parts for manufacturing is ridiculously long: Apogee, Bock, Manley, Chandler, Warm etc., all of them profit from the economies of scale available in China. The list of US and Western companies who claim to manufacture locally, but actually have everything done in China is also a very long one. But that's for another discussion

Back on topic, you can't street a microphone for $1'250, give 35-40% margin to a distributor, make a decent profit, and still use a high-end European capsule. It just isn't possible. The maximum manufacturing and assembly budget for a Soundelux U195 is around $400. An MBHO capsule on its own costs more than that.

The only way to do this is if you make the capsule yourself (Neumann, Gefell etc.)