boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 04:53:23 PM »
I know better then to get in a debate with someone with a Trotsky quote in his signature.  ::)

Coded facism? An example would be great.


tands

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 04:55:55 PM »
Maybe later, but probably not. Considering the mewling noises of a bunch of entitled white teens is not really what I'm into. This lowbrow sh*t is time out of my life too.

living sounds

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2018, 05:21:41 PM »
" Because changes in societies are [driven] by changes in living conditions. "

Seems a little circular. Societies change for numerous reasons. One way is by teaching students the politically correct side to be on in a debate.  Postmodernist Neo-marxists are most readily found in college humanities departments in historically liberal colleges. To believe that these teachers do not influence their students thoughts on activism and leftist ideology, you only need look at the fire alarm pulls and protests against free speech whenever a right leaning speaker comes to town. Evergreen, Berkley, and Reed come to mind.

Edit: It used to be that the free exchange of ideas, however controversial, were absolutely essential to developing a student into a balanced individual that can face the world with perspective. Now in liberal educational spheres, it seems everything is being reduced to power, position, and privilege, and the only way to equalize the landscape is not to talk (or listen) but to demand change by cooersment or silencing of the opposition. These tactics are very much from the marxist playbook.

Yes, but who cares? What's the actual impact? 50 years ago here in Germany we had a higly visible ultra-leftwing student movement set out to transform society. This was the babyboomer generation, a massive cohort. The got into education, government, industry. Result? They found consumerism like everyone else, made money, grew old. Economic policy moved steadily to the right since the late 70s regardless. Some changes happened, like women being allowed to have their own bank account, getting divorced, being gay was decriminalized and so on. But Marxism never gained traction. And now you assume those feminists in the humanities departments will be successfull? No way! The least happy people in the former GDR (the soviet part of Germany) were those unable to watch Western German TV.  In a nutshell: People won't become radical Marxists as long as they've got Netflix.

Now if you want to see actual coersion look no further than the right-wing voter suppression tactics applied blatantly across the US. Here's a nice list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States

living sounds

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2018, 05:27:59 AM »
Damn, I saw that Real Time Episode (always watch that show) and didn't even realize who that was.  8)

iomegaman

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2018, 08:01:21 PM »
My main issue with Peterson is his reinforcing of Patriarchy to the exclusion of hearing the voices of others...its a subtle thing, but he seems to frame feminism as an attack on masculinity/Judeo-Christian model and this approach has spawned a huge group of frustrated male dickheads known as "Incels" (Involuntary Celibates) who are some of his strongest defenders...I know I can't directly blame him for this nonsense but he doesn't appear to be too open to dialogue that Patriarchy has been abusive to women for forever.

In the words of Jesus you judge a tree by its fruit, the primary fruit-flakes I see following him think sex is a commodity and women belong on the market, that they are entitled to have sex with them and since they don't get laid its feminisms' fault rather than they just haven't grown the f**k up themselves.

I like a lot of his logical approach to things but also feel like his debates where he takes down "liberal feminist" are not exactly representative of feminism as a global movement...it's a bit like the debates are sort of stacked decks to prove his point.

THAT feels like an echo chamber to me.
Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 08:36:42 PM »
Quote
he doesn't appear to be too open to dialogue that Patriarchy has been abusive to women for forever.

You're right, he's not convinced women's oppression has been an ever-present historical fact since it does not account for the advent of birth control and the overwhelming demands of the natal cycle in premodern times.  It's quite the move to attempt to dispute the modern truism that men are the sole cause of women's limited representation in recorded history.  But it's also an interesting view I never thought could be reasonably argued for, which makes it valuable.

iomegaman

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 09:14:42 PM »
I blame Plato and Constantine...Peterson is just the fruit from a much older branch of dualism.

Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2018, 09:47:01 PM »
I stopped subscribing to dualistic thought processes once I had been convinced its methodolog..  wait.   Um...

iomegaman

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2018, 08:19:57 PM »
I think its helpful to distinguish what we mean by "the feminist movement" and feminism as a global movement...

I have very little support for "organized movements"...there have been outliers of course but in todays culture an "organized movement" might have roots far from its stated purpose...in contrast to the disruption of awareness that the female gender globally has been pretty much castrated both economically and politically...it is obviously changing as gender issues become less controversial and more mainstream...but like burning man in the desert the genesis of something and the economic evolution into a consumer product are often diametrically opposed to one another.
Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2018, 12:58:36 PM »
Why the Left needs the Right and vice versa:

(Start at 10:00)
https://youtu.be/E1PeOfbT_q0?t=556


etheory

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2018, 04:18:45 AM »
I've listened to hours and hours and hours of Peterson, and I've never once heard him say anything interesting, impressive or compelling. As far as I can tell he's just about the most over-hyped and over-congratulated public "intellectual" of recent times. I don't understand at all why people find him compelling. A number of my friends have "fallen under his spell", but when pushed, they aren't able to reasonably explain to me why he's giving them anything that a.) isn't available elsewhere and b.) isn't old re-packaged arguments that have already been thoroughly debunked. I agree with some of his points, but overall, I find most of what he says pretty bland, and at worst, dangerously misleading.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2018, 11:11:08 AM »
Quote
"I've listened to hours and hours and hours of Peterson, and I've never once heard him say anything interesting, impressive or compelling. "

If you have not received any wisdom from the man hey, all good. But it would serve his fans and detractors better if you argue against something he said. Misleading? Elaborate.

fazer

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2018, 01:40:03 PM »
I listened to a bit of Peterson and heard him talk about the power of podcast or the ability to do 2 things at once.  When doing the mundane job, Like driving to work and be able to listen to  a podcast on something you have interest in is great.  I’m going to add him to this summers routine. 

Also a movement or an individual has a choice . When people except a role for decades or centuries,  it’s a choice as much as a persecution.     

fazer

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2018, 02:38:04 PM »
In a democracy,  you have the right to change things by enlisting a majority not by being a victim.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2018, 01:27:43 AM »
Possibly the only criticism of JP I've yet to read that didn't totally misrepresent his views:

https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-peculiar-opacity-of-jordan-petersons-religious-views/

fazer

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2018, 11:27:31 AM »
I’ve listened to 3 podcast and I’m enjoying the distraction while cleaning up 40 years of my collections that have been in a storage building .   

I enjoy the interviews and assembled panel discussions.   He supports some of my narratives And so I find I agree with things said.   The changing world makes everyone unsure of things they take for granted.   Im sure I’ll rack up a few hours before this is done.   
I should start a post on thing i’ve Found in this building.   Like an old wood Wurlitzer 140!piano. Or ampex 440b 4 track or how about a film dubber,  This is my logos.  Why? 

Long live music and DIY.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2018, 10:03:37 PM »
Quote
This is my logos.  Why? 
Long live music and DIY.

I would wear a t-shirt with that quote on it. =D

PIctures of the wurly u feel up to it!

fazer

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2018, 10:02:55 AM »
Quote
Possibly the only criticism of JP

The article is a well written complaint.  Sometimes JP’s argument gets a bit like the professor in front of a class defending his beliefs in a cleaver way more so than insightful, But......

Applying a Religous slant to your passions is how I view my own changes for music being my religion.  I was rejecting my catholic background and found music to be a spirt journey of its own.   Later in collage I remember seeing  , Return to Forever at a small venue.( Chick Corea ,  Stanley Clark, Al Demeola , Lenny,  )
Wow if that wasn’t music as religion,  I don’t know what elese is.   Earlier ,  Hendrix, The Beatles, Cream and others just stole my spirituality.     

I can see a Classic outlook on Engineerinng and having a scientific outlook  problem solving method.  This also applies for music, but you don’t get to those levels of playing (as the mentioned artist) by applying rules from a book.   There is a dedication  that becomes a religion when you get to that level.

boji

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2018, 10:28:09 PM »

dmp

Re: Jordan Peterson cult followingz
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2018, 12:25:44 PM »
Heartening to see this coming out of The Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/why-the-left-is-so-afraid-of-jordan-peterson/567110/

Why is that heartening?

The narrative of "the left and oppressive identity politics" is a caricature that seems ridiculous to me.  And I live in one of the most liberal cities in the US and went to undergrad and grad school at a major state University.  I majored in English (as well as engineering) which, if you believe this 'identity politics' storyline, would have had about the heaviest brainwashing of any major. Maybe it has changed some in the last 15 years since I graduated, but considering a lot of the faculty remains the same I don't expect it has changed too much.
So for anybody who believes this narrative of leftist identity politics, do you have personal experience of it? Or is it a belief conjured up from news propaganda? (Straw man incidents like a white nationalist speaker being protested at Berkeley).

Yes - people on the left oppose racism, sexism, or oppression / discrimination - but that goes with a liberal philosophy (aka liberty)  - equal opportunity for all (equal opportunity not to be confused with equalizing outcomes).


 

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