Matador

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2018, 12:16:04 AM »
I won't go down your straw man rabbit hole.

Charles Krauthammer who is presently dying of cancer has been paralyzed from the neck down from a diving accident while still in college, and has been stuck in a wheel chair for the last several decades. He went on to graduate from  medical school, become a psychiatrist and then later a successful journalist and television commentator.

He could run circles around you hypothetical victims without use of his legs.  8)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-note-to-readers/2018/06/08/3512010c-6b24-11e8-bea7-c8eb28bc52b1_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a6744cd9ce10

JR 
Probably not the best example, since he was already graduated from a college in Canada (and interesting that he went to high school there too), and was already admitted to Harvard *before* his accident.
 My point was that equality of opportunity assumes that yea verily there is actually equal opportunity and your example doesn't refute that.

Let's use a non-hypothetical example - African Americans make up 12% of the population of the US, yet make up less than  6% of the enrollment in the top 100 public and private universities.  How do you explain that, assuming that we have complete equality of opportunity?


scott2000

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2018, 01:06:58 AM »
This is great..... kinda sums up a lot for me anyhow....

A little rough but I get it.... 5:00

Jordan Peterson vs. Michael Dyson on White Privilege, gets Heated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tlIGAg1aiU
"Give me a 25-stack of 9V batts, I'll monitor my truck's spark or fuel injection on the magic eye." PRR

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2018, 02:57:50 PM »
Probably not the best example, since he was already graduated from a college in Canada (and interesting that he went to high school there too), and was already admitted to Harvard *before* his accident.
 My point was that equality of opportunity assumes that yea verily there is actually equal opportunity and your example doesn't refute that.
he was just a timely anecdote to inject.
Quote
Let's use a non-hypothetical example - African Americans make up 12% of the population of the US, yet make up less than  6% of the enrollment in the top 100 public and private universities.  How do you explain that, assuming that we have complete equality of opportunity?
There are other far more damning statistics (how about prison populations?). But equal opportunity does not result in equal outcomes unless everybody is equally talented and equally motivated (they aren't), with similar personal backgrounds.

This is a very old subject and well discussed, but trotted out repeatedly to suggest victimization for identity politics polarization (us-them). Equal outcomes is an unachievable result unless everybody is dropped to the lowest common denominator (Cuba, Venezuela, etc).

Back on topic, maybe De Blasio should just award his aggrieved minority students HS diplomas so they can declare equal outcomes, without all that bothersome study and testing. If they don't displace qualified students from access to the elite education this will do less harm.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

boji

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2018, 08:57:01 PM »
Quote
"I would be super interested to hear how people define 'competency'."

I'd say it's a bit like pornography; you know competency when you engage with it. You also know when its absence is on display.

My guess is some believe competency to include- given an ideal environment- the pluripotentiality of the individual.  But to frame it this way is to avoid the nature / nurture argument, and as such must be based, at least partially, on an ideology.

scott2000

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2018, 10:21:44 PM »


Back on topic, maybe De Blasio should just award his aggrieved minority students HS diplomas so they can declare equal outcomes, without all that bothersome study and testing. If they don't displace qualified students from access to the elite education this will do less harm.

JR

They could build another school to address the displacement.....but I guess it too would have to be restricted in it's offering?? Weird.... Will we start seeing a black market for education???


woah....that wasn't meant to be racist... I mean the black market like selling cigarettes and booze or something....Or food if you're in Venezuela....

"Give me a 25-stack of 9V batts, I'll monitor my truck's spark or fuel injection on the magic eye." PRR

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 12:41:12 AM »

Back on topic, maybe De Blasio should just award his aggrieved minority students HS diplomas

It’s not about equal outcomes. It’s about equal opportunity to the elite high schools like Stuvusant and Bronx Science.

scott2000

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2018, 12:50:05 AM »
This FAA  Air Traffic Control case is strange....

Passing over more qualified or better testing applicants in order to diversify...I think the push for this may have been reversed.... Not sure what to think of this....

I guess the testing isn't as important as we used to think....???

 the allegations of discrimination stem from the FAA’s change in ATC hiring practices in 2013. Before that time, preference was given to CTI graduates, veterans and those with high rankings on the Air Traffic Selection and Training exam (AT-SAT). The AT-SAT was revised in 2013, a separate personality-based Biographical Assessment—that many said was nonsensical—was added as a requirement and preferential hiring for CTI grads was removed. According to the FAA, the purpose of the assessment was, in part, to increase diversity in its workforce.

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/ATC-Applicants-Get-New-Day-in-Court-in-FAA-Discrimination-Suit-230913-1.html

"Give me a 25-stack of 9V batts, I'll monitor my truck's spark or fuel injection on the magic eye." PRR

When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2018, 02:25:00 AM »
...wait for it..

[pic]
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

scott2000

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2018, 09:24:34 AM »
Oxford and Cambridge ??? So the UK has the same problems?? 

I think it's good to consider a lot of the "who you know" policies that are inherently unspoken throughout life. 

I asked one of my attorney friends about this in the circle of legal stuff like prosecutors,attorneys and judges...etc....and he asked me  "what do you think? Would you call any of your friends for help?"

 I've also mentioned before when I was researching cancer how I came across a study that looked at how studies were very biased towards the particular subject they were representing because of the nature of the ties and funding that was required for their very existence....

I think root level morality is the solution to many of the worlds problems but, the argument of what that means or how to achieve this would be a biggie I'm thinking.....
"Give me a 25-stack of 9V batts, I'll monitor my truck's spark or fuel injection on the magic eye." PRR


JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2018, 11:10:03 AM »
It’s not about equal outcomes. It’s about equal opportunity to the elite high schools like Stuvusant and Bronx Science.
They already have equal access but did not score high enough on the tests. That is not the Asian-American student's fault, who managed to excel under similar circumstances.

The elite HS system in NYC is (was?) one of the city's jewels. If De Blasio wants to do something positive, expand the elite HS system to accommodate more students, but that would cost more money per vote, than just throwing the smaller Asian-American group under the bus, to win favor from other larger voting blocks.    ::) 

JR

John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2018, 11:41:58 AM »
They already have equal access but did not score high enough on the tests. That is not the Asian-American student's fault, who managed to excel under similar circumstances.

The tests are biased. If you start with the premise that black and brown people aren't dumber than whites and east Asians then something must be amiss if there is great disparity.

I went to a similar school in Buffalo. It pulled in students from across the city and there was affirmative action. I can tell you that it was no predictor of how one did in school. It certainly wasn't white kids at the top of the class and black kids at the bottom of the class.

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2018, 12:00:47 PM »
The tests are biased. If you start with the premise that black and brown people aren't dumber than whites and east Asians then something must be amiss if there is great disparity.
Indeed there is a huge cultural difference in respect for education and parental enforced discipline to do well in school.  I dislike stereotypes and there are many examples of individuals that rose above their disadvantaged background.  I do not buy that these are victims of any system, while arguably some government policy has led to deterioration of family values, and this can and does affect their success in life.
Quote
I went to a similar school in Buffalo. It pulled in students from across the city and there was affirmative action. I can tell you that it was no predictor of how one did in school. It certainly wasn't white kids at the top of the class and black kids at the bottom of the class.
This is not the argument. We are all far more similar than different so blaming raw intelligence on race is not scientifically supported. The nature vs nurture argument is, or should be, well inspected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics
Quote from: wiki
In 1972, Richard Lewontin performed a FST statistical analysis using 17 markers (including blood-group proteins). He found that the majority of genetic differences between humans (85.4 percent) were found within a population, 8.3 percent were found between populations within a race and 6.3 percent were found to differentiate races (Caucasian, African, Mongoloid, South Asian Aborigines, Amerinds, Oceanians, and Australian Aborigines in his study). Since then, other analyses have found FST values of 6–10 percent between continental human groups, 5–15 percent between different populations on the same continent and 75–85 percent within populations.[31][32][33][34][35] This view has been affirmed by the American Anthropological Association and the American Association of Physical Anthropologists since.[36]

I repeat, IMO De Blasio is making a small ball political play.  Trading one voting block for two other larger ones.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2018, 12:32:29 PM »
. This is not the argument. We are all far more similar than different so blaming raw intelligence on race is not scientifically supported.

Right. You started the thread which said that it's racist to give similar opportunity to all. Taking a biased test is not giving the same opportunity to all. I said making entrance requirements more fair and affirmative action is no indicator of outcome. I have personal experience with this and I believe even the number bear that out. You keep arguing that making entrance requirements more fair is trying to engineer an outcome for those that don't deserve it.

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 01:26:33 PM »
Right. You started the thread which said that it's racist to give similar opportunity to all.
No I said De Blasio is politician trying to win votes by pitting one smaller minority group against other larger groups (imo racist behavior).
Quote
Taking a biased test is not giving the same opportunity to all.
tens of thousands students vie for the 5,000 slots.  I really doubt that the tests are biased in favor of Asian-Americans, and against those other groups. The more logical explanation for their better performance is because they worked harder and probably did additional study (to outperform).
Quote
I said making entrance requirements more fair and affirmative action is no indicator of outcome.
I still do not see the apparent entrance requirement bias, maybe the other groups performed worse on the tests because they didn't  study as hard.  The opportunity gap may be in their family culture toward educational goals.
Quote
I have personal experience with this and I believe even the number bear that out. You keep arguing that making entrance requirements more fair is trying to engineer an outcome for those that don't deserve it.
I am arguing that the Asian Americans do not deserve to have their superior test outcomes negated because they are not black or not hispanic. IMO their performance is not evidence of test bias, but evidence of who worked harder to pass the tests. If you change the test, they will likely adjust their study programs to ace them too. Mandating quotas is not equal opportunity, again just trying to manage outcomes.

Apparently this subject resonates with you. I'm glad you feel it led to a better outcome for you.

For a moment forgetting about the only 5,000 elite high school seats, looking at the larger picture of education in NYC, there are 1M students total with a $25B school budget. Despite that the quality of general education there is not highly regarded. To reopen another large can of worms there are educational reform programs that have lost ground under De Blasio  (charter school approvals have dropped 60% under him). I don't want to turn this into a standard team politics screed but read my mind... :(  I am nervous about saying read my mind because of the proclivity around here to put words in my mouth).

In my judgement Mayor De Blasio is not helping (all/most) students or race relations in NYC.  Likewise he is not helping his national political aspirations, but i could be wrong about the latter since his vote counting math is solid.   ::)

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »
No I said De Blasio is politician trying to win votes by pitting one smaller minority group against other larger groups (imo racist behavior). tens of thousands students vie for the 5,000 slots.  I really doubt that the tests are biased in favor of Asian-Americans, and against those other groups. The more logical explanation for their better performance is because they worked harder and probably did additional study (to outperform). I still do not see the apparent entrance requirement bias, maybe the other groups performed worse on the tests because they didn't  study as hard.  The opportunity gap may be in their family culture toward educational goals.I am arguing that the Asian Americans do not deserve to have their superior test outcomes negated because they are not black or not hispanic.

This is self contradictory.  You are saying that Asian Americans work harder than African Americans and that accounts for the difference. Now that sounds racist to me.

No one is talking about negating tests that have already been taken. It's about making the entrance requirements more equitable for all students.



Quote
moment forgetting about the only 5,000 elite high school seats, looking at the larger picture of education in NYC, there are 1M students total with a $25B school budget. Despite that the quality of general education there is not highly regarded. To reopen another large can of worms there are educational reform programs that have lost ground under De Blasio  (charter school approvals have dropped 60% under him). I don't want to turn this into a standard team politics screed but read my mind... :(  I am nervous about saying read my mind because of the proclivity around here to put words in my mouth).

He is not in favor of Charter Schools so he doesn't back them. Charter Schools is one of those issues that cuts across standard political lines though. You can get an excellent education in the NYC public schools. Not only in the elite High Schools. You can also get a terrible education. I think that's similar to a lot of big cities. Funding public education is not deemed important by a large swath of the population.


scott2000

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 02:10:56 PM »

No one is talking about negating tests that have already been taken. It's about making the entrance requirements more equitable for all students.


So it's an easy solution....Build more schools to support the extra students. As JR pointed out, lowering or changing standards will only make it easier for Asian Americans if it is in fact their tenacious habits towards study making them to always seem to be the ones who do well, so, with their variable staying the same, there will obviously be more.....The thing I hope doesn't get weird is if there are not enough seats and everyone has the same test scores.....Then who decides? Then it goes to a character or moral test???

Sounds like it'll be interesting......
"Give me a 25-stack of 9V batts, I'll monitor my truck's spark or fuel injection on the magic eye." PRR

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2018, 03:18:39 PM »
This is self contradictory.  You are saying that Asian Americans work harder than African Americans and that accounts for the difference. Now that sounds racist to me.
I did not say they are capable of working harder which would suggest some racial capacity difference, but are culturally more motivated to work harder in the pursuit of higher education by their "tiger parents" (google it, that's a thing). Maybe we need black and hispanic tiger moms (I'll bet there are at least a few out there).
Quote
No one is talking about negating tests that have already been taken. It's about making the entrance requirements more equitable for all students.
I have not heard any proof that the tests are racially biased. I do not consider charges from the victim industry or politicians as proof.

The claim is not that the test is racially biased but that it's use leads to racial disparities (again outcomes). They further claim that the test does not conclusively predict student's success (Lots of wiggle room in that argument). The data they cite is that something like only 19 black students made the cut, so the entrance criteria must be flawed. Why don't they look at their own education system to explain the deficiency. They already offer free test coaching to some poor students.   
Quote


He is not in favor of Charter Schools so he doesn't back them. Charter Schools is one of those issues that cuts across standard political lines though. You can get an excellent education in the NYC public schools. Not only in the elite High Schools. You can also get a terrible education. I think that's similar to a lot of big cities. Funding public education is not deemed important by a large swath of the population.
Another straw man? In my judgement the problems with education are not simply a matter of funding (that sounds like an all too common teacher's union screed).  I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

From  my decades of experience in manufacturing process control, without measurements (tests) we are running blind without our hands on the steering wheel. Education is a process that can be managed like any other. Claiming that tests aren't fair tells me to fix the test, not ignore testing.

We need to give every the student their best opportunity to gain a decent education so they can become good citizens who understand the world around them, and can attain gainful employment, some can even become amazingly rich (the few extraordinary or lucky) individuals.

This is a getting a little repetitious (I need to go do something).

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

hodad

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2018, 04:33:55 PM »
I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

JR

When was the last time you were in a school?  Have you had a kid in school in the last 20 years (if ever)?  Spent any time lately talking to the folks who are actually doing the work, day in & day out? 

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2018, 05:47:41 PM »
The claim is not that the test is racially biased but that it's use leads to racial disparities (again outcomes).

That sounds like a difference without a distinction.

Quote
They further claim that the test does not conclusively predict student's success (Lots of wiggle room in that argument).

That corresponds to what I saw in my high school. I said that above. If a test is not a good predictor of a students success it shouldn't be too heavily weighted as an entrance requirement.

Quote
Why don't they look at their own education system to explain the deficiency. They already offer free test coaching to some poor students.   I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

That's exactly what is happening. Did you just switch sides? Don't confuse entrance requirements including a test with classwork. Classwork is taught and a test will show retention of the information.  An entrance exam is something you are not supposed to be able to study for.

Quote
From  my decades of experience in manufacturing process control, without measurements (tests) we are running blind without our hands on the steering wheel. Education is a process that can be managed like any other. Claiming that tests aren't fair tells me to fix the test, not ignore testing.

What test shows talent in the arts? What test shows creative writing talent? That is all judgement. Tests are good at evaluating some things but not others.


 

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