Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2018, 11:41:58 AM »
They already have equal access but did not score high enough on the tests. That is not the Asian-American student's fault, who managed to excel under similar circumstances.

The tests are biased. If you start with the premise that black and brown people aren't dumber than whites and east Asians then something must be amiss if there is great disparity.

I went to a similar school in Buffalo. It pulled in students from across the city and there was affirmative action. I can tell you that it was no predictor of how one did in school. It certainly wasn't white kids at the top of the class and black kids at the bottom of the class.


JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 12:00:47 PM »
The tests are biased. If you start with the premise that black and brown people aren't dumber than whites and east Asians then something must be amiss if there is great disparity.
Indeed there is a huge cultural difference in respect for education and parental enforced discipline to do well in school.  I dislike stereotypes and there are many examples of individuals that rose above their disadvantaged background.  I do not buy that these are victims of any system, while arguably some government policy has led to deterioration of family values, and this can and does affect their success in life.
Quote
I went to a similar school in Buffalo. It pulled in students from across the city and there was affirmative action. I can tell you that it was no predictor of how one did in school. It certainly wasn't white kids at the top of the class and black kids at the bottom of the class.
This is not the argument. We are all far more similar than different so blaming raw intelligence on race is not scientifically supported. The nature vs nurture argument is, or should be, well inspected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics
Quote from: wiki
In 1972, Richard Lewontin performed a FST statistical analysis using 17 markers (including blood-group proteins). He found that the majority of genetic differences between humans (85.4 percent) were found within a population, 8.3 percent were found between populations within a race and 6.3 percent were found to differentiate races (Caucasian, African, Mongoloid, South Asian Aborigines, Amerinds, Oceanians, and Australian Aborigines in his study). Since then, other analyses have found FST values of 6–10 percent between continental human groups, 5–15 percent between different populations on the same continent and 75–85 percent within populations.[31][32][33][34][35] This view has been affirmed by the American Anthropological Association and the American Association of Physical Anthropologists since.[36]

I repeat, IMO De Blasio is making a small ball political play.  Trading one voting block for two other larger ones.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 12:32:29 PM »
. This is not the argument. We are all far more similar than different so blaming raw intelligence on race is not scientifically supported.

Right. You started the thread which said that it's racist to give similar opportunity to all. Taking a biased test is not giving the same opportunity to all. I said making entrance requirements more fair and affirmative action is no indicator of outcome. I have personal experience with this and I believe even the number bear that out. You keep arguing that making entrance requirements more fair is trying to engineer an outcome for those that don't deserve it.

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 01:26:33 PM »
Right. You started the thread which said that it's racist to give similar opportunity to all.
No I said De Blasio is politician trying to win votes by pitting one smaller minority group against other larger groups (imo racist behavior).
Quote
Taking a biased test is not giving the same opportunity to all.
tens of thousands students vie for the 5,000 slots.  I really doubt that the tests are biased in favor of Asian-Americans, and against those other groups. The more logical explanation for their better performance is because they worked harder and probably did additional study (to outperform).
Quote
I said making entrance requirements more fair and affirmative action is no indicator of outcome.
I still do not see the apparent entrance requirement bias, maybe the other groups performed worse on the tests because they didn't  study as hard.  The opportunity gap may be in their family culture toward educational goals.
Quote
I have personal experience with this and I believe even the number bear that out. You keep arguing that making entrance requirements more fair is trying to engineer an outcome for those that don't deserve it.
I am arguing that the Asian Americans do not deserve to have their superior test outcomes negated because they are not black or not hispanic. IMO their performance is not evidence of test bias, but evidence of who worked harder to pass the tests. If you change the test, they will likely adjust their study programs to ace them too. Mandating quotas is not equal opportunity, again just trying to manage outcomes.

Apparently this subject resonates with you. I'm glad you feel it led to a better outcome for you.

For a moment forgetting about the only 5,000 elite high school seats, looking at the larger picture of education in NYC, there are 1M students total with a $25B school budget. Despite that the quality of general education there is not highly regarded. To reopen another large can of worms there are educational reform programs that have lost ground under De Blasio  (charter school approvals have dropped 60% under him). I don't want to turn this into a standard team politics screed but read my mind... :(  I am nervous about saying read my mind because of the proclivity around here to put words in my mouth).

In my judgement Mayor De Blasio is not helping (all/most) students or race relations in NYC.  Likewise he is not helping his national political aspirations, but i could be wrong about the latter since his vote counting math is solid.   ::)

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »
No I said De Blasio is politician trying to win votes by pitting one smaller minority group against other larger groups (imo racist behavior). tens of thousands students vie for the 5,000 slots.  I really doubt that the tests are biased in favor of Asian-Americans, and against those other groups. The more logical explanation for their better performance is because they worked harder and probably did additional study (to outperform). I still do not see the apparent entrance requirement bias, maybe the other groups performed worse on the tests because they didn't  study as hard.  The opportunity gap may be in their family culture toward educational goals.I am arguing that the Asian Americans do not deserve to have their superior test outcomes negated because they are not black or not hispanic.

This is self contradictory.  You are saying that Asian Americans work harder than African Americans and that accounts for the difference. Now that sounds racist to me.

No one is talking about negating tests that have already been taken. It's about making the entrance requirements more equitable for all students.



Quote
moment forgetting about the only 5,000 elite high school seats, looking at the larger picture of education in NYC, there are 1M students total with a $25B school budget. Despite that the quality of general education there is not highly regarded. To reopen another large can of worms there are educational reform programs that have lost ground under De Blasio  (charter school approvals have dropped 60% under him). I don't want to turn this into a standard team politics screed but read my mind... :(  I am nervous about saying read my mind because of the proclivity around here to put words in my mouth).

He is not in favor of Charter Schools so he doesn't back them. Charter Schools is one of those issues that cuts across standard political lines though. You can get an excellent education in the NYC public schools. Not only in the elite High Schools. You can also get a terrible education. I think that's similar to a lot of big cities. Funding public education is not deemed important by a large swath of the population.


JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 03:18:39 PM »
This is self contradictory.  You are saying that Asian Americans work harder than African Americans and that accounts for the difference. Now that sounds racist to me.
I did not say they are capable of working harder which would suggest some racial capacity difference, but are culturally more motivated to work harder in the pursuit of higher education by their "tiger parents" (google it, that's a thing). Maybe we need black and hispanic tiger moms (I'll bet there are at least a few out there).
Quote
No one is talking about negating tests that have already been taken. It's about making the entrance requirements more equitable for all students.
I have not heard any proof that the tests are racially biased. I do not consider charges from the victim industry or politicians as proof.

The claim is not that the test is racially biased but that it's use leads to racial disparities (again outcomes). They further claim that the test does not conclusively predict student's success (Lots of wiggle room in that argument). The data they cite is that something like only 19 black students made the cut, so the entrance criteria must be flawed. Why don't they look at their own education system to explain the deficiency. They already offer free test coaching to some poor students.   
Quote


He is not in favor of Charter Schools so he doesn't back them. Charter Schools is one of those issues that cuts across standard political lines though. You can get an excellent education in the NYC public schools. Not only in the elite High Schools. You can also get a terrible education. I think that's similar to a lot of big cities. Funding public education is not deemed important by a large swath of the population.
Another straw man? In my judgement the problems with education are not simply a matter of funding (that sounds like an all too common teacher's union screed).  I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

From  my decades of experience in manufacturing process control, without measurements (tests) we are running blind without our hands on the steering wheel. Education is a process that can be managed like any other. Claiming that tests aren't fair tells me to fix the test, not ignore testing.

We need to give every the student their best opportunity to gain a decent education so they can become good citizens who understand the world around them, and can attain gainful employment, some can even become amazingly rich (the few extraordinary or lucky) individuals.

This is a getting a little repetitious (I need to go do something).

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

hodad

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2018, 04:33:55 PM »
I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

JR

When was the last time you were in a school?  Have you had a kid in school in the last 20 years (if ever)?  Spent any time lately talking to the folks who are actually doing the work, day in & day out? 

Gold

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2018, 05:47:41 PM »
The claim is not that the test is racially biased but that it's use leads to racial disparities (again outcomes).

That sounds like a difference without a distinction.

Quote
They further claim that the test does not conclusively predict student's success (Lots of wiggle room in that argument).

That corresponds to what I saw in my high school. I said that above. If a test is not a good predictor of a students success it shouldn't be too heavily weighted as an entrance requirement.

Quote
Why don't they look at their own education system to explain the deficiency. They already offer free test coaching to some poor students.   I favor standardized testing, but am willing to consider fairness reviews of these tests. If students repeatedly do bad on the tests fire their teachers (don't ignore the tests).

That's exactly what is happening. Did you just switch sides? Don't confuse entrance requirements including a test with classwork. Classwork is taught and a test will show retention of the information.  An entrance exam is something you are not supposed to be able to study for.

Quote
From  my decades of experience in manufacturing process control, without measurements (tests) we are running blind without our hands on the steering wheel. Education is a process that can be managed like any other. Claiming that tests aren't fair tells me to fix the test, not ignore testing.

What test shows talent in the arts? What test shows creative writing talent? That is all judgement. Tests are good at evaluating some things but not others.

boji

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2018, 05:55:28 PM »
Quote
"However, because all populations are genetically diverse, and because there is a complex relation between ancestry, genetic makeup and phenotype, and because racial categories are based on subjective evaluations of the traits, there is no specific gene that can be used to determine a person's race."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

This should put all the hand-wringing about racial selectivity in the educational admittance process to rest, but it doesn't. Why?
If you're tempted to say, 'because racism is alive and well' how does that scientifically address the issue of improving the education system without gumming it all up with political posturing? Am I just being naive here?

boji

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2018, 06:14:10 PM »
Quote
"An entrance exam is something you are not supposed to be able to study for."

Right, and you can find just about any study aid imaginable online. When convincing my mom to use the laptop I gave her, I tried to sell it in a sense that not having access to the internet nowadays is equivalent to suffering from a learning disability.
Now all she does is buy junk on ebay and ask me why I'm not answering her chat messages immediately.  ::)


Matador

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2018, 09:26:50 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

This should put all the hand-wringing about racial selectivity in the educational admittance process to rest, but it doesn't. Why?
If you're tempted to say, 'because racism is alive and well' how does that scientifically address the issue of improving the education system without gumming it all up with political posturing? Am I just being naive here?
It's because tests are taken by a population of students, and if enough students take the test, and the tests are fair, and we assume equal aptitude across a population of students (because why wouldn't we?), then we would expect a similar student diversity as the general population of students.

However that's not what we see, which is what prompts important questions.  I don't agree that we can chalk up the difference to "desire to work harder" or "how their cultural value of education is different".  Visit any elementary school and the desire of all students to learn is apparent.

And unfortunately, funding is correlated to performance of the school, all other things being equal.  David Mosenkis published some papers which showed that with only the racial mix of the student body, he could accurately predict the per-student spending of schools in Pennsylvania without knowing anything else about the school or where it was in the state.

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2018, 12:07:15 AM »
Is this limited to just PA? Do the schools not receive similar funding from the Government/s? I'm just asking.... This is interesting...

Seems like an easy fix if it's just a need for more funding....

More funding for schools is 'an easy fix', scott2000???

The last thing on the list to get more funding is schools in the US, they give tax cuts to parasitic capitalists and build more prisons instead, where have you been?
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Matador

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2018, 12:45:28 AM »
Is this limited to just PA? Do the schools not receive similar funding from the Government/s? I'm just asking.... This is interesting...

Seems like an easy fix if it's just a need for more funding....
The paper in question was limited to PA, and of course there were low funded high performing schools, and high funded low performing schools, but at the state level the overall trends were clear.

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2018, 10:49:58 AM »
It's because tests are taken by a population of students, and if enough students take the test, and the tests are fair, and we assume equal aptitude across a population of students (because why wouldn't we?), then we would expect a similar student diversity as the general population of students.
Because as I grow weary of saying, there are other variable besides DNA involved.  It is easy to imagine identical twins separated at birth and raised in different cultures to perform differently (like all those babies adopted from China by families in other countries). Google "nature vs nurture".
Quote
However that's not what we see, which is what prompts important questions.  I don't agree that we can chalk up the difference to "desire to work harder" or "how their cultural value of education is different".  Visit any elementary school and the desire of all students to learn is apparent.
cough....   These days many of them are drugged (with good intentions). ADHD drugs are now being used (abused) by college students presumably to enhance performance.
Quote
And unfortunately, funding is correlated to performance of the school, all other things being equal.  David Mosenkis published some papers which showed that with only the racial mix of the student body, he could accurately predict the per-student spending of schools in Pennsylvania without knowing anything else about the school or where it was in the state.
Sadly probably true (demographics) but hopefully changing as we become more integrated which will take multiple generations to be complete. Also sadly IMO race relations have been set back by recent political opportunism (almost a decade).

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2018, 11:08:17 AM »
When was the last time you were in a school?  Have you had a kid in school in the last 20 years (if ever)?  Spent any time lately talking to the folks who are actually doing the work, day in & day out?
It is impossible to not hear the arguments if you pay any attention at all.

We should be in the golden age for education with all the technology tools available to reduce the menial repetitive work and provide instant easy access to information, but luddites are still running the asylum***.  I see the recent De Blasio drama as a symptom of the wider political struggle corrupting the education system instead of doing what is right for the children.

JR

*** exaggeration of course. There are success stories out there and hopefully we will learn from them and expand not shutter them (like De Blasio and charter schools). I think DeVoss is a good person for her job but she seems perpetually vilified by the left.
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

JohnRoberts

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 11:32:08 AM »
That sounds like a difference without a distinction.

That corresponds to what I saw in my high school. I said that above. If a test is not a good predictor of a students success it shouldn't be too heavily weighted as an entrance requirement.

That's exactly what is happening. Did you just switch sides? Don't confuse entrance requirements including a test with classwork. Classwork is taught and a test will show retention of the information.  An entrance exam is something you are not supposed to be able to study for.
it is mostly testing your previous education level to see if you can handle the work. People can and do prep for entrance exams. I recall posting before how private tutoring is a tens of $B industry in So Korea with millionaire individual tutors. Again some cultures value higher education more than we do.
Quote
What test shows talent in the arts? What test shows creative writing talent? That is all judgement. Tests are good at evaluating some things but not others.
I have started saying STEaM*** instead of STEM for the pillars of education. The small "a" is for exposure to art. It was called art appreciation back in my student days.  You can not teach someone to be an artist  and much great art is rewarded only posthumously, but we should be aware of it. Government support for arts has led to many expensive embarrassing fiascos which erodes public support.

FWIW nobody taught me how to invent stuff... Most of my electronics education was self taught with some workplace mentors along the way (which is why I am willing to pay it forward). I am really jealous of kids today who can just come here to get expert advise for free (or use google... maybe do that first).  As often happens people rarely value free advice any more than they paid for it.  ::)

JR

**** I first heard this acronym used by Karlie Kloss, a model who runs a non-profit software organization to get young girls interested in coding.
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

boji

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2018, 12:02:55 PM »
Quote
"Also sadly IMO race relations have been set back by recent political opportunism (almost a decade)."

I tend to lay it at the feet of identity politics.
Edit: traded video out  for one with just monologue. https://youtu.be/dvzOH2YY-_M?t=4
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:43:18 PM by boji »

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 12:31:42 PM »
**** I first heard this acronym used by Karlie Kloss, a model who runs a non-profit software organization to get young girls interested in coding.

Karlie is very cute.

boji

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2018, 12:51:24 PM »
Quote
"I am really jealous of kids today who can just come here to get expert advise for free (or use google... maybe do that first).  As often happens people rarely value free advice any more than they paid for it."

Perhaps it's that I'm a little older now, but dear god- let me be one to say: I am constantly floored by how generous, wise and thoughtful people have been around here in assisting some of us out of the muck.

hodad

Re: how is this not racist?
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2018, 01:06:31 PM »

We should be in the golden age for education with all the technology tools available to reduce the menial repetitive work and provide instant easy access to information, but luddites are still running the asylum***.
JR

Menial repetetive work is how we learn.  At this juncture there is no direct connect from  internet to brain.  If information is not in brain, then brain has nothing to think about.  If one has nothing to think about, one does not learn. 

But, of course, the internet is an amazing tool.  No different from a library, except that most of us are now carrying access to the library with us wherever we go.  But that does not suddenly obviate the need to have a large vocabulary, the ability to string together sentences in a cohesive and grammatically correct fashion.  Nor does it mean that rote memorization of times tables and other math facts is suddenly pointless. 





 

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