dmp

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2018, 12:35:59 PM »
Hmm complaining about team politics with the latest team politics (talking points).

Ideally, there could be a discussion of facts without the blatant partisanship of team politics. Seems that isn't happening much anymore as more and more people get locked into their ideological echo chamber.
Your response is case in point. Label 'facts' team politics when they do not support your right-wing team. Post facts that seem to support your team. Look at the link to see what I was calling team politics.  Like Rush Limbaugh on talk radio in 2016: "HRC is an abortion of America" (actual quote - I heard it).
 "is it tiring to be upset all the time?" - this is the kind of taunting you'd expect in an elementary school.  I guess this is the Trump effect - normalizing this kind of juvenile behavior. The smart response is to just ignore it (I guess I'm not doing too well in that respect).

Team politics is about suppression of facts. If facts do not help your team win, you try to avoid them by dismissing them. Endemic of the anti-science position of many in the USA.



JohnRoberts

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2018, 02:10:55 PM »
Ideally, there could be a discussion of facts without the blatant partisanship of team politics. Seems that isn't happening much anymore as more and more people get locked into their ideological echo chamber.
Hopefully a shorter political RT60 here.
Quote
Your response is case in point. Label 'facts' team politics when they do not support your right-wing team.
what is the fascination with putting words in my mouth? Talking points can be facts, the best ones are, but these "facts" get exaggerated out of proportion by hyperbolic ranters. For example the joint military exercise postponement is a definite talking point in circulation right now (to discredit guess who?). The fact that they were also postponed for the winter olympics is ignored. This conditional or temporary postponement has been extrapolated into a full US military withdrawal and a major concession by the more hyperbolic spinners.  I may be responding to them more than you, lots of hyperbole in the air, and not likely to get any calmer between now and Nov. 
Quote
Post facts that seem to support your team. Look at the link to see what I was calling team politics.  Like Rush Limbaugh on talk radio in 2016: "HRC is an abortion of America" (actual quote - I heard it).
I wondered who listened to guys like him? Bringing that up now sounds like a base stirring exercise to help turnout for 2018. I have been trying to forget about her and her husband President Clinton. One or the other seems to stay perpetually in the news. He's  pimping his new book while getting embarrassing questions from a once friendly media. I guess the #metoo movement has changed public sensibilities that much that even he is now fair game for those awkward questions. That wouldn't have happened even a couple years ago. (I'm thinking I need to write a best selling book to get some of those easy millions.)
Quote
"is it tiring to be upset all the time?" - this is the kind of taunting you'd expect in an elementary school.  I guess this is the Trump effect - normalizing this kind of juvenile behavior. The smart response is to just ignore it (I guess I'm not doing too well in that respect).
I am pretty good at compartmentalizing and do not get upset much (i do dislike having my personal statements mischaracterized.) I am getting called new novel pejoratives but that is a little amusing.  8)
Quote
Team politics is about suppression of facts. If facts do not help your team win, you try to avoid them by dismissing them. Endemic of the anti-science position of many in the USA.
Team politics is about winning office. The methods are many and often dishonorable. That's why they call it the swamp.

That anti-science connection sounds like a leap but there is a disturbing anti-science trend. The swamp dwellers typically don't want to confuse major issues with real science (or even complete science). Short scientific "sounding" slogan are OK even if not technically accurate. The only people who lobby against science must have a dishonest agenda (the laws of physics are truth, until they are superseded by more complete physical laws ).

I am criticizing both parties so don't get all defensive unless you identify with my complaints. I value your opinion as brighter than average but your biases are showing, probably as much as mine do (it's just human nature).  ::)

JR

PS: are you following the recent claims about bitcoin price manipulation? I've seen some spokesmen pimping the coins, conflating block chain with bitcoin et al... Two distinct things.
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2018, 05:37:09 PM »
Ho ho, it's f**kin theocracy. :)

Quote
AG Jeff Sessions on immigration policy: Illegal entry into the US is a crime; "I would cite you to the apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13, to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained the government for his purposes."

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1007352689209069569
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2018, 05:53:03 PM »
https://twitter.com/thekarami/status/1007234793065476097

Quote
That girl's name is Samar Hassan. In the film "Hondros" she said "No one ever told me they were sorry. Sorry won't bring back my parents. I'll never forgive them. If they were in front of me, I would want to drink their blood—and still I would not feel satisfied."

nsfw
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2018, 10:51:16 PM »
I am not sure who/what you are responding too but wrt the Iran deal, President Obama's strategy was based on the expectation that relieving sanctions on Iran would improve the economic situation of the Iranian public and increase pressure on the theocracy to be less bellicose and a better world citizen.  In hindsight we have since learned that Iran misrepresented the status of their nuclear program at the time of the deal, and continued spending still scarce resources on mischief in the region. One recent news report suggests Iran is dressing their fighters in Syria in Syrian military uniforms to complicate reactive/protective Israeli strikes. Israel still views Iran as an existential threat and Iran hasn't done anything to defuse that.

IMO it seems overly optimistic to expect the Iranian theocracy will relax their iron grip on political control, or change direction in pursuing more middle east influence, supporting proxy fighting on several fronts.  The evidence so far is that they haven't changed, but President Obama wanted to make the long (10 year) gamble.  history..

That's a great example of passing off unsubstantiated right wing talking points, as facts.

Breaking your comment down:

We have since learned absolutely nothing of the kind. Seems you trust Bibi more than your own intelligence agencies, who say the Iranian program ended in 2003. His documents don't date past 2003 either... Hard to imagine why the world thinks the tail is wagging the dog /s.

Iran was never given the sanction relief it was promised. Foreign banks didn't re-enter Iran for fear of US reprisals, economic boost from signing never materialising.

The US, Israel and Saudi Arabia have consistently increased the probability of conflict with Iran since 2015. Expecting Iran to unilaterally back down as if they exist in a vacuum, is ridiculous. They are flanked by 4 war zones, dozens of US military bases, the 5th Fleet, ISIS, the Taliban, AQ, and several openly hostile dictatorships armed with 100's of billions worth of American made weapons.

Israeli pilots shooting missiles at Syria from inside Lebanese airspace, can't identify the uniform someone is wearing + couldn't care less if they kill Iranians or Syrians. The IDF violating sovereign Lebanese and Syrian airspace, and murdering Lebanese, Syrian and Iranian nationals, is not 'reactive' or 'protective'. It's a violation of the UN Charter, and illegal under international law.

Iran is not an 'existential threat' to Israel. Israel and the US are an 'existential threat' to Iran – who is pointing nuclear warheads at who? It's also not up to Iran to make nuclear armed Israel feel warm and fuzzy...

History? CIA and Mossadegh, the Shah and his Savak, US armed Saddam, Iran Air 655, 40-years of sanctions and lies and defamation of an entire country, scientist assassinations, economic blockades, Stuxnet, travel bans... The list is too long to even bother compiling.

And about being a 'better world citizen' – do you qualify illegally invading and occupying Iraq (over 1 million dead and counting), carpet bombing Afghanistan for 17-years, flooding Syria with weapons you knew we're ending up in the hands of ISIS and AQ, turning a blind eye to the actions of Israel in Gaza and the West-Bank, aiding and abetting Saudi Arabia and the UAE's wholesale murder of Yemeni's, as being a 'better world citizen'? Is this the example you'd like Iran to follow?

JohnRoberts

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2018, 10:19:50 AM »
That's a great example of passing off unsubstantiated right wing talking points, as facts.

Breaking your comment down:

We have since learned absolutely nothing of the kind. Seems you trust Bibi more than your own intelligence agencies, who say the Iranian program ended in 2003. His documents don't date past 2003 either... Hard to imagine why the world thinks the tail is wagging the dog /s.
Israeli intelligence is highly motivated. Learning about less than truthful statement of program at the time of the deal is academic at this point, other than to address general trustworthiness of the current Iran government.
Quote
Iran was never given the sanction relief it was promised. Foreign banks didn't re-enter Iran for fear of US reprisals, economic boost from signing never materialising.
Iran's economy  was really on the ropes at the time the sanctions were relaxed (I opposed the relaxation hoping for a stronger deal with a treaty ratified by congress). Expanding sanctions relief was conditional on Iran changing it's behavior. They remain aggressively supporting fighting in the region to gain influence, instead of improving the economic outcome for their own citizens with the money freed up.
Quote
The US, Israel and Saudi Arabia have consistently increased the probability of conflict with Iran since 2015. Expecting Iran to unilaterally back down as if they exist in a vacuum, is ridiculous. They are flanked by 4 war zones, dozens of US military bases, the 5th Fleet, ISIS, the Taliban, AQ, and several openly hostile dictatorships armed with 100's of billions worth of American made weapons.
This is a classic argument, but why would the US want to invade Iran and/or cause more conflict for the Iranian  people? 
Quote
Israeli pilots shooting missiles at Syria from inside Lebanese airspace, can't identify the uniform someone is wearing + couldn't care less if they kill Iranians or Syrians. The IDF violating sovereign Lebanese and Syrian airspace, and murdering Lebanese, Syrian and Iranian nationals, is not 'reactive' or 'protective'. It's a violation of the UN Charter, and illegal under international law.
nor is it legal for the Iranian revolutionary guard to fire rockets into Israel from Syria. Even Putin admits that Israel has the right to defend itself against such attacks.
Quote
Iran is not an 'existential threat' to Israel. Israel and the US are an 'existential threat' to Iran – who is pointing nuclear warheads at who? It's also not up to Iran to make nuclear armed Israel feel warm and fuzzy...
saying something is so, doesn't make it so. There is an obvious difference between Israel's defensive posture and neighbors shooting rockets into Israeli territory. Counter strikes to prevent new attacks should be expected. What do you think we would do if some third nation fired rockets into the US from Canada or Mexico? We'd respond ballistically too.
Quote
History? CIA and Mossadegh, the Shah and his Savak, US armed Saddam, Iran Air 655, 40-years of sanctions and lies and defamation of an entire country, scientist assassinations, economic blockades, Stuxnet, travel bans... The list is too long to even bother compiling.
The history of the entire world is long and ugly. A fair reading of that history reveals that the US has done far more good than bad, but opinions vary with some characterizing the US as evil. That is a typical propaganda ploy to call any opponents evil and unworthy of thoughtful inspection. As a US citizen I have an obvious bias but I have read a lot more real history than inflammatory propaganda.
Quote
And about being a 'better world citizen' – do you qualify illegally invading and occupying Iraq (over 1 million dead and counting), carpet bombing Afghanistan for 17-years, flooding Syria with weapons you knew we're ending up in the hands of ISIS and AQ, turning a blind eye to the actions of Israel in Gaza and the West-Bank, aiding and abetting Saudi Arabia and the UAE's wholesale murder of Yemeni's, as being a 'better world citizen'? Is this the example you'd like Iran to follow?
The US has made mistakes in the past and probably will make more in the future because the world is a complex place.  One mistake is picking sides in a thousand year old(?) religious conflict, but the alternative is to let everybody kill even more of each other.  No easy answer but i don't accept the argument that Iran want's a bomb just for protection from Israel (or us). 

As I've shared before Yemen is a proxy war supported by Iran against the Saudis, who are far from the good guys in the middle east. I'm just glad that the middle east isn't already glowing from radioactive fallout as many predicted last century.

JR

PS: I'm repeating myself but I think the last US administration made a huge mistake and sent a terrible message to tyrants everywhere but letting Gaddafi be killed in Libya after he peacefully gave up his nuclear ambitions. Many see this as a likely outcome for them too if they stop nuclear weapons development. That is only one of several costly mistakes the last administration made but we could be paying for that one a very long time.
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

JohnRoberts

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2018, 10:47:08 AM »
From what I understand,which is not much,  many Iranians like the western  way of life but there is   powerful opposition in place...arguably because of the US past decisions. 
The Iranian public is highly educated and not in lockstep with the religious leadership who are mostly focussed on preserving an iron grip on control.
Quote
I wish I knew more about this stuff but, I would think that, to look at any country, as an entire country  of people who share the beliefs being propagated  as acceptable or, beyond that,  that many citizens   even have a clue as to what most of this even means, is really not going to factor well into any ultimate equation.
It is always difficult to factor in for different histories and cultures, human nature makes us expect everybody to think and act just like us... the world doesn't quite work that way. 
Quote
I can definitely see the possibility in other parts of the world regarding large majorities differing from each other within any particular country's borders. In America, we can't even discuss what seems to me simple things without fighting so, for me to imagine that, there are people in other parts of the world experiencing the same division among themselves isn't too far of a stretch for me....
our politics is tame compared to many parts of the world and even compared to us a century ago.
Quote
To dismiss bad actors anywhere in the world is  naive , and to dismiss an entire country because of bad actors is never hopeful in my opinion ........
not sure who you are referring to.
Quote
I feel there are many in the world who want to live in peace and share the belief in the rights of people everywhere.. I also feel there may be some there that would like to destroy every (take your pick)  on the planet . Maybe not in that order.....
all people share common needs and goals, differences exist in leadership that do not always work in the peoples interest but their own.
Quote
I just get confused on what or how  we're supposed to do things and look good to everyone at the same time. Is that even possible? Do we just not do anything and stay out of other's business and worry about our own?  What even defines our own anymore? We can't even discuss borders??
lots of discussion but our lawmaking is difficult by design. It is jokingly called "sausage making" because you don't always want to watch what goes into it.
Quote
... I always bring up Venezuela because I've talked to so many people from there that tell me the only way to help Venezuela is to go take that militaristic dictator out  by force but, that's in contrast to so many other's views,substantiated or propagated,  that I just tell them I'm sorry about the situation there...  I sometimes wonder if many other parts of the world, including here, don't share the same story.....
The economic decline continues in Venezuela, and without dollars to keep the lights on (and military paid), Maduro may lose control.  The lack of investment and maintenance to the domestic oil industry has reflected in constantly falling output. Further their ability to convert the remaining oil into dollars is being hampered by international assets seizures for debt obligations that are in default. Ships and port terminal seizures make it harder to ship/sell the declining oil that they pump (but there are always buyers). 

Regime change is one of those easy answers that can lead to unintended outcomes. Maduro's Cuban cadre have so far been effective at suppressing a serious rebellion, but as the cash flow and oil declines even the Cuban's may no longer be able to afford supporting him. Unfortunately the best and brightest citizens have already left the country years ago. Now whats left are people who couldn't afford to leave, but as conditions decline they are creating humanitarian crisis in neighboring countries as they walk across borders.
Quote
But I am one of those clueless ..... So I'm not sure of anything yet.
Venezuela used to be one of the wealthiest nations in South America because of their (still) massive oil reserves. But they frittered that source of revenue and wealth away by nationalizing the oil industry and mismanaging it into decline. There is lots of information out there but don't look for easy answers on twitter or social media, or even here.  :o

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Matador

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2018, 12:46:31 PM »
This is a classic argument, but why would the US want to invade Iran and/or cause more conflict for the Iranian  people?
I would suggest Googling anything John Bolton (you know, our new NSA director) has said in the last 20 years.  Perhaps starting with his NYT column in 2015 titled, "To Stop Iran’s Bomb, Bomb Iran".

JohnRoberts

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2018, 01:56:19 PM »
I would suggest Googling anything John Bolton (you know, our new NSA director) has said in the last 20 years.  Perhaps starting with his NYT column in 2015 titled, "To Stop Iran’s Bomb, Bomb Iran".
I stopped reading the NYT in the 70s.  I know who John Bolton is. Back some 15 years ago I bought a book called "The NEOCON Reader" to see what everybody was whining about. I barely made it through the table of contents and still don't know why they needed a new name for some old concepts. I guess it was for political targeting purposes to help demonize them.

Back then (I just checked) Bolton was warning about the possible danger of WMD getting into the hands of terrorist groups most likely from rouge nations (I didn't read his whole essay and still don't plan to). I'd say that threat has not exactly been eliminated while the cockroaches are mostly too occupied dodging drones to execute their larger plans (not to mention the great job performed by our intelligence community). We still suffer suicide, and lone wolf attacks. The NEOCON book is in like new condition if anybody is interested.  ::)

Over the years there have been a number of surgical air strikes in the middle east to take out nuclear enrichment capability in different countries. This is far from invasion, or regime change. Sadly kicking this can down the road just leaves a bigger mess to deal with later (like N Korea). I am not very optimistic about how the middle east would look today if the sundry nuclear weapons programs were not nipped in the bud (might be glowing in the dark by now).

In light of this Iran has kept many nuclear program locations secret and deep underground. It would be ironic if an underground bunker is so well protected that a conventional bunker buster can't pierce the shield, requiring a nuke to stop nuclear development.  In 2017 the US dropped a MOAB in Afghanistan (mother of all bombs) the largest conventional explosive device at >20,000#. There was an air force program to develop a 30,000 pound version (that US aircraft can deliver) but that program was delayed/postponed (they're very expensive). That's a big bang but it could take more to penetrate a few tens of feet of reinforced concrete. That could be pretty easily exceeded by a larger tactical nuke, but nobody wants to open that can of worms.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Matador

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2018, 02:43:35 PM »
Over the years there have been a number of surgical air strikes in the middle east to take out nuclear enrichment capability in different countries. This is far from invasion, or regime change.
I don't think John bolton agrees with you.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10620/iran-regime-change
Quote
I had said for over 10 years since coming to these events, that the declared policy of the United States of America should be the overthrow of the mullahs' regime in Tehran. The behavior and the objectives of the regime are not going to change, and therefore the only solution is to change the regime itself.  And that's why, before 2019, we here will celebrate in Tehran!


When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2018, 09:17:11 PM »
Quote
Skidmore got involved last spring when he heard Catherine Austin Fitts, former assistant secretary of Housing and Urban Development, refer to a report which indicated the Army had $6.5 trillion in unsupported adjustments, or spending, in fiscal 2015. Given the Army’s $122 billion budget, that meant unsupported adjustments were 54 times spending authorized by Congress. Typically, such adjustments in public budgets are only a small fraction of authorized spending.

Skidmore thought Fitts had made a mistake. “Maybe she meant $6.5 billion and not $6.5 trillion,” he said. “So I found the report myself and sure enough it was $6.5 trillion.”


https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2017/msu-scholars-find-21-trillion-in-unauthorized-government-spending-defense-department-to-conduct/
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2018, 09:53:52 PM »
Abby Martin & The Neo-Liberal Plan To Bring Down VenezueIa

https://youtu.be/F1674vgq_VQ
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2018, 07:37:49 PM »
Quote
Saw an older, diabetic man at the pharmacy try and pick up 4 prescriptions. Pharmacist told him he should have gotten an email stating his Medicaid was ineligible last month and he owes $2700+. He said he doesn't have a computer or money. She asked him to leave. Tight country.

https://twitter.com/samhellohi/status/1007716099515793408
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2018, 07:12:49 PM »
Quote
OK let's talk for a minute about what a fraud Salena Zito is, and how S.E. Cupp carried on that fraud for her in @nytopinion



Salena Zito has built a market niche for herself as the person who explains Trump voters to the coastal media—the premise being that Hillary Clinton narrowly lost the Rust Belt and Upper Midwest by failing to persuade a persuadable class of voters.


So here is S.E. Cupp explaining, through one of Zito's sources, how and why the Democrats have failed to persuade some of the women they needed to reach.


Boy, those are some really punchy quotes! They sound almost like what a political figure would say.


Here's an earlier piece by Zito introducing the world to Maurer—"the married, educated, suburban mom whom experts missed in the 2016 election....The Clinton campaign tried hard to win over voters like Maurer with ads highlighting Trump’s most misogynistic remarks"


And here's this representative Midwestern woman voter who the Democrats just couldn't craft the right message to win over, posing with her fellow members of the executive board of the Republican Party of Kenosha County


The reason her thoughts and quotes, gathered by Salena Zito and S.E. Cupp, harmonize with the Republican message is that she's a Republican Party official, being passed off via @nytopinion as a representative ordinary citizen



https://twitter.com/tomscocca/status/1008371613304283137
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2018, 10:56:40 PM »
Quote
Fascists are murdering and burning in the street historical militants of the FSLN who fought US imperialism. They are murdering on a daily basis even those who sympathize with socialism. This is what the west supports.

nsfw

https://twitter.com/DedamacsinsBrat/status/1008413804567375872
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2018, 11:08:52 PM »
Quote
Israel is using dogs to attack Palestinians at night and welding doors shut to incarcerate families in their homes

https://twitter.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1008429256798502913
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Gene Pink

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2018, 11:12:11 PM »
n/m
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:20:54 PM by Gene Pink »

Re: Question for those on the left
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2018, 11:20:59 PM »
Quote
Don’t assume that seeing images of brown children separated from their parents & placed in overcrowded shelters will elicit sympathy or outrage from everyone. For some people, this is exactly what they want to see.

https://twitter.com/ClintSmithIII/status/1008357751398035456
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
77 Replies
27587 Views
Last post March 10, 2005, 09:30:53 PM
by Bauman
0 Replies
563 Views
Last post May 03, 2006, 08:39:33 AM
by Jonkan
0 Replies
662 Views
Last post May 03, 2006, 08:39:55 AM
by Jonkan
13 Replies
2706 Views
Last post June 20, 2011, 01:41:06 PM
by sonicwarrior