ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2018, 07:47:24 PM »
Phase response of a 96 dB per octave high pass filter using Fabfilter Pro Q2

Plug in Doctor displays Radians rather than degrees but the top of the graph is +180 degrees and the bottom -180 degrees.

You can see even with a 30 Hz high pass you have 360 degrees of phase shift at 100 Hz.  On some sound sources that will not be audible (slow moving evolving pads for example), on others it can make a big difference (tight, percussive kick drums).


Edit : lots of typos
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 10:56:18 AM by ruairioflaherty »


ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2018, 07:55:16 PM »
Ahhhh.......much better.

This is the phase response of a 6 dB per octave filter at the same frequency.

I tend to use either 6 or 12 dB per octave and very occasionally 18.

Now to be clear I'm not saying that just because we can measure a trade off in phase response that we should be afraid of steep filters, but in a good room with good speakers you will start to hear the differences and make better choices.

I hear the gallery saying "but the Beatles made great records on ancient speakers in untreated rooms".  Yes, but the production values of the time were different and the engineers did not have access to 96 dB per Octave filters and multi band parallel upward expansion etc...

So, we have tools these days that are more powerful but can also inflict a lot more damage on audio.  We have production values that demand huge low end, high levels and maximum impact.  The upshot? Less processing is better and if you are going to use a modern and powerful tool like multi band compression or 96 dB/oct filters be sure that you can hear what is really happening to the audio.  You might be working on the next Beatles..

Gold

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 07:57:01 PM »
So, your mix should sound exactly like what you want the finished record to sound like, if you are chasing a lot of level.  If not then you can go the old fashioned way and have fun mixing.

Remember that a mix is an illusion. If you want a really loud mix it starts with the arrangement. I'm talking Green Day loud. If the arrangement isn't right it will never happen. Loudness has to be a goal right from the beginning. When the mix is done if you see the meters moving more than a dB or two you've missed the mark.

I recently had the opposite happen. I got plenty of clarity on the vocals and drum machine / samples, (punch included) but when moving over to mastering (they asked for LOUD) I had to compensate, and got rid of other HF in the process. :/ 

I'm trying to learn to 'mix for what it will sound like when mastered'.

If you want a loud mix it needs to have near zero dynamic range, but of course sound like it has tons. If you got clarity and punch but the VU meters are flapping around then you've shot yourself in the foot. Because it will all have to go away. The ideal mix would have no low end, no high end and no dynamic range but sound huge. If you study some of those really loud mixes you will see that they fit in a small box. There is a lot less there than you think.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 07:59:02 PM »
And one more note in case it is not clear, the above phase response will be the same for any minimum phase EQ with the same slopes, hardware or software.

Linear phase (FIR) EQ will have zero phase shift but introduce pre-ringing which becomes increasingly audible the lower the frequency.  See the video I linked earlier.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2018, 08:00:20 PM »
Remember that a mix is an illusion. If you want a really loud mix it starts with the arrangement. I'm talking Green Day loud. If the arrangement isn't right it will never happen. Loudness has to be a goal right from the beginning. When the mix is done if you see the meters moving more than a dB or two you've missed the mark.

If you want a loud mix it needs to have near zero dynamic range, but of course sound like it has tons. If you got clarity and punch but the VU meters are flapping around then you've shot yourself in the foot. Because it will all have to go away. The ideal mix would have no low end, no high end and no dynamic range but sound huge. If you study some of those really loud mixes you will see that they fit in a small box. There is a lot less there than you think.

100% agree, arrangement is everything.

scott2000

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2018, 09:52:59 PM »
100% agree, arrangement is everything.


Where does that thread go? The Drawing Board? lol ;D

weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2018, 08:10:11 AM »
loudness + good quality happens in the mix not on the master buss.
it's always better to compress single tracks than squash it down in the end

weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2018, 08:11:56 AM »
I don't like the Fabfilter EQ (1 or 2) as much as some other people but the advice to go linear phase is bad, especially for high pass filtering.

I've posted it before but this video gives at least some insight into why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKabAQQsPQ

If you have good monitoring and very good room acoustics the damage linear phase eqs cause is very obvious.  I use them very rarely and generally because I want to make use of their weak point - the pre ringing to smear HF energy across time.
i think i wasn't clear enough. i wasn't talking about extreme cutting with linear phase (like hpf or lpf) but bell filters

Michael Tibes

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2018, 10:35:32 AM »
Phase response of a 96 dB per octave high pass filter using Fabfilter Pro Q2...

Thank you, that is an amazing visualization! I'll get plugindoctor immediately...

Michael

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2018, 10:54:58 AM »
loudness + good quality happens in the mix not on the master buss.
it's always better to compress single tracks than squash it down in the end

Absolutely!  Or better yet, have less tracks.  Modern pop, R&B and Hip Hop generally has very sparse arrangements.


ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2018, 11:02:04 AM »
i think i wasn't clear enough. i wasn't talking about extreme cutting with linear phase (like hpf or lpf) but bell filters

The effect is the same even with bells and even at lower Q and gains, linear phase EQ smears transients over time in a way that is unnatural.  Normal minimum phase EQ ringing is a natural phenomenon that we experience every day in the real world.

To me linear phase EQ just sounds wrong bar a few odd use cases.

I do use a rare linear phase crossover on DMG essence but it has to be high frequency (say 10kHz and above) and before it is worth the trade off. I used it last night on a traditional record from Ireland with very clacky and bright string transients on acoustic guitar and mandolin.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 12:17:12 PM by ruairioflaherty »

weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2018, 11:33:26 AM »
Do you guys know the difference between (or use) the natural phase and the linear phase mode in the fabfilter pro q2?

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2018, 12:08:59 PM »
Do you guys know the difference between (or use) the natural phase and the linear phase mode in the fabfilter pro q2?

From a quick look at the manual and some tests in Plug In Doctor "Natural Phase" mode just seems to be minimum phase with de-cramping to help minimize phase response issues near nyquist.  This is not a unique feature to Fabfilter but of course they have branded it nicely.

There will be no difference between "Low Latency" and "Natural" mode at anything but high frequencies and even then the differences with decramping can be subtle IME.

There is some overly simple explanations of what decramping is here, if I find a better and still readable explanation I'll post a link

https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/a-classification-of-digital-equalizers-draft/

« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 12:16:35 PM by ruairioflaherty »

boji

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2018, 02:23:45 PM »
Just wanted to again say thanks to everyone. This thread has been very instructive!

A side question, since we did kinda talk about likes and dislikes of digital eq's: 

Have any of you messed with Nebula?  I ask because if keeping it strictly digital,  it has been my go-to for hf boost. Specifically Angel's EQ,  and Mammoth high shelf. What's your comparative take on a good digital eq for boost?
I get this moves away from origin thread q, I can start a new thread if you wish.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2018, 02:41:03 PM »
I haven't tried Nebula in years, and a quick look at their website says that it's only marginally less confusing than it was back then…

DMG Equilibrium is the only plug in EQ I use, and I haven't heard anything better. 

boji

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2018, 03:07:25 PM »
Quote
only marginally less confusing than it was back then

You ain't kidding.

lol perhaps why I think it sounds good is because it took so much work getting it to function!

Thanks for recommending plugin doctor, I simply MUST take a look at how Nebula behaves phasially relative to DMG (which I've yet to experience) or fabfilter.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2018, 03:28:22 PM »
You ain't kidding.

lol perhaps why I think it sounds good is because it took so much work getting it to function!

Thanks for recommending plugin doctor, I simply MUST take a look at how Nebula behaves phasially relative to DMG (which I've yet to experience) or fabfilter.

The phase response will be exactly the same as any other EQ with the same curves that is minimum phase, it must be (errors excepted).

DMG is a worthwhile step up from Fabfilter Pro Q2 IMO.


Mbira

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2018, 02:32:23 AM »
I'm not going to claim any expertise in Mastering, though I am doing what I can to learn from everyone I can.  I primarily mix and master electronic music-mainly stuff like psytrance and trance.  I generally shoot for around 12 LUFS for streaming, but if it's going on a CD or out to DJs, then I try and get closer to 8 LUFS because that's what I'm seeing the other reference tracks in my genre doing.  I have seen people using clip shifters on the drum bus and even on the master bus, and it amazes me how much you can get away with in my style of music that will get me up to that 8-6 LUFS without the audible distortion and "falling apart" that usually happens for me if I'm just trying to squeeze a limiter.
Joel Laviolette

Rattletree   |  https://www.rattletree.com
The Rattletree School of Marimba | https://www.learnmarimba.com

ruffrecords

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2018, 03:35:44 AM »
Excuse this old guy's ignorance, but what is a LUFS??

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

Michael Tibes

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2018, 04:10:21 AM »
Excuse this old guy's ignorance, but what is a LUFS??

Cheers

Ian

A way to measure loudness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LKFS
https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/mixing-and-mastering-using-lufs

Youtube, spotify and probably all the rest level audio to a certain LUFS  now, which should reduce level differences between songs or videos. These levels are actually lower than the typical 'loud' CD master, so it is actually also a step to overcome the 'loudness war' because even if your CD is louder than everything else it will be leveled down on spotify.

Michael


 

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