boji

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2018, 06:11:37 PM »
Quote
Some people think that this is when childbirth became difficult for women (re: Eve's punishment etc)  Interesting to note that mitochondrial Eve is dated to the same point.

Indeed interesting.  Those early stories have all sorts of cross-contamination with pre-abrahamic faiths, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, etc. Stories of the flood can be found in nearly all ancient religious texts, which suggests it may have been passed down orally as far back as 10k years ago, going back to the Younger Dryas event (Comet impact theory).

The three kooky horsemen podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFlAFo78xoQ


dmp

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2018, 04:03:42 PM »
I just read "the lessons of history" by Durant. Great book. And it's pretty short.

In it the author explains how children used to be a resource in agricultural societies (children would be an asset once they were old enough work) but this has changed with an industrial / technology society. Changing this 'nature' of humanity is not a simple switch. 

DaveP

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2018, 05:09:48 PM »
That makes  sense, now they need a specialist/technological education to find work.

The Child Resource scheme of things lasted for millennia.

DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

benb

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2018, 10:37:42 PM »
Now with automation and robots, many are wondering how long the Human Resource scheme is going to last. Seven billion is going to be a lot of people out of work.

SPbStan

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2018, 02:23:34 PM »
I am new here so might be speaking [writing] where not welcome but in all these posts about migration the source of most that impacts Europe, and it surely does, is not overpopulation at all. A sure fire way to stem the floods into Europe is to stop bombing poor brown skin countries. Macron seems to have forgotten that he is actively involved in the actions and supports those of other countries which are keeping wars in all those regions going. Now many of the millions in the Middle Easy went because it was too dangerous to stay where they had homes and communities that were flattened by western bombers and western backed mercenaries?  The US alone has troops doing covert operations, use of force, in 52 of the 54 African countries. Why?  No one can explain it without causing laughter or disgust. The claimed reason to change regimes, often democratic governments, was because the US has the right to violate all international law simply because no one can stop them.
I travel a lot(90 countries), and have lived outside the US for 18 years and find that many of these targetted countries were much more stable and equitable before the invasion. Maybe if NATO and the US just minded their own business the millions streaming out of their historic lands would stay at home and build better lives.   The fastest growing regions of the world  in terms of improvement in quality of life are in places westerners think are backward and desperate. Africa has the fastest growing economies.
The countries that are getting the infrastructure assistance from China are making radical improvements. For example with the new ports, airports, cargo transit systems, high speed rail, dams, schools and power systems,  poverty has been cut dramatically, not with money aid but assistance in essential infrastructure, without crippling IMF loans that destroy almost every developing country's economy that allows them. Africa now has 7 times more high speed rail than ALL of North America.
Instead of spending a Trillion dollars on foreign military occupation and dozens of wars of aggression imaging how much different Europe and the US would be if that money was used to create a secure sustainable society for those living in it.
It is too late for the US, people do not count and there is no way to call it a democracy, and with the rapid decline of quality of life, with no answers or even voices of reason seeking to reverse the 35-year decline for 3/4 of the population.  Much of the world is greatly improving and about 100 countries have a superior quality of life and economic mobility over the US now, which used to be #1 40 years ago.  If  Americans traveled more, they would see that the "world" is not falling apart, they are. I return every few years for a few weeks and each time get more depressed by the division, fear, anger and hostility.  No place I have been has been so badly misinformed by their media and governments. Almost nothing believed by Americans about other countries and people is true. The US population is subjected to the most propaganda, most intense, most dishonest and most self-serving of any place I have ever been. 
All that will change soon.   The rise of formerly poor countries which have banded together to form the largest economic and trading alliance in history is forming now and already represent over 1/2 the world population, with 3/4rd of the world pledged to join, that does not use the US dollar for trade settlement is the only existential threat there is to the US and EU. It gets no mention in western press, but that is the whole reason for the uptick in aggression against countries which are elements of it, including all the middle eastern countries we have invaded in recent decades, none of which were a threat to the US. It is not radical Islam, or Russia or any of the dozen other favorite nonsense targets. Belt Road Initiative or New Silk Road is changing the entire world economy yet is no even talked about in the US. China has advanced in so many areas to overtake the US in such a short period while we decline. Those with enough money for foreign vacations has changed the whole travel industry shifting it from west to east. The middle class in China is much larger than that of the US now and PPP is higher...in just 15 years has shown the world that the western Zero-Sum thinking is obsolete.
Despite the most sanctions ever put on another country(by definition, an act of war), Russia has a higher median family net worth than the US, and much higher quality of life for average citizens. One would not know that from western press and officials, however.  500,000 people who only knew the propaganda visited to the World Cup this last couple weeks and it shocked most of them, how much their press and governments had been lying to them.   It is not about that one country but every targetted country and every vilified leader.  By living on myths about the world, how on earth would anyone expect appropriate decisions or policies to be made? 
This aggression is what is driving  the migration. Migration is a western created problem and the west can stop it just by changing its aggressive policies and leave those countries alone.

DaveP

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2018, 03:47:07 PM »
You are welcome to post here like anyone else.

You seem to make little or no reference to the activities of IS, Al Shabaab and Boko Harum or any other of the insurgents groups trying to carve out their own little caliphates in Africa.  Does 200 chibok girls ring a bell?

The logic which appears to have escaped you, is that it is easier to eliminate small groups of terrorists, than wait until they take over an entire country like Mali, that is why Macron is spending time and effort there and the US the same.

You will find many here who will like your post, but for me personally, unbalanced argument = Bias= low credibility.

DaveP
Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

bluebird

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2018, 05:32:51 PM »
Yeah... but what if he's even 75% right? Still an eye opening post. I'm not going to pretend like I'm immune to propaganda. I like to think I'm smarter than most,  but I know deep down... I'm not:)

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2018, 07:29:10 PM »
I agree with almost all of what Stan said ,we(the west) are making trouble for ourselves.
While I agree with Dave the politicians really dont or wont talk much about population control ,that there is people up beyond government and countries already figuring out ways to cull populations Im certain there is , enough rope to hang ourselves is the phrase that springs to mind .If theres going to have to be a cull ,why not maximise profit off it ,Gradually allowing noxious chemicals into the food chain would be a good way ,and thats already happeneing . Mash our brains with technology ,that will certainly reduce the life expectancy, Over use of medications ,thats happening too ,Sugar addiction we have that ,Obiesity thats going to have a huge impact in the future and all of those things we are willfully allowing to happen,couple all that with falling birth rates in the west . We're in serious trouble the way were going ,we'll simply be replaced in time ,maybe thats precisely the plan . The US population would be dropping only for inward migration ,you seriously think Humpty Trumpty doesnt know that despite his demonisation of people coming from war torn places ?

The other interesting point Stan made was ,its probably only since he's spent time away from the USA that he can actually see it for what it is . I spent time away from my own culture in my teens ,and I had a completely different perspective when I came back . Im sure you can probably connect on that point too Dave ,being an expat .

DaveP

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2018, 04:49:31 AM »
My hope in resisting propaganda is a free press, most journalists are liberal, almost a prerequisite.  They are all looking for the next Watergate.  On a daily basis I check the BBC, ITV, Sky and France 24.  That way I can circumvent editorial bias as far as possible.

The West have intervened in several wars with a bad result that's true.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say,  Kosovo, was a possible exception.

Let's consider the alternative strategy followed by Russia.  They follow Real Politik,  It doesn't matter to them whether the guy in charge is good or bad, just as long as he can keep order, Assad is a prime example.  There is a kind of brutal logic in this.  You start from the assumption that lots of people are going to die one way or the other in a more or less random way.  So support the guy with the best chance of winning.  There were so many hostile factions against him, that were never going to agree among themselves afterwards, so better to support the tyrant.

Whether a liberal West could live with a policy like that is an open question, it smacks of non-interventionist fortress America.

The problems in Africa have many causes, endemic corruption in their culture probably being the largest cause of unrest.  When I was in the Congo in the mid 70's, the government  always placed government officials in distant areas where their relatives and own tribal members could not access them to demand special treatment.  This kind of family/tribal obligation is difficult to comprehend in western societies, because we have not been tribal since the time of the Celts, Saxons, Jutes Danes etc.

Over population is a big problem in South Africa where young unemployed men turn to crime, post Mandela.

Nigeria has oil but does not share the profits with the area that it comes from, they just get the pollution.  Nigerian armed forces are not up to the job of eliminating Boko Harum by themselves; they are very vulnerable to Islamic terrorism.  Mali has the same problem minus the oil, so does Somalia.  You could liken Islamic terrorism to a virus and western special forces to T Cells, I guess.

People like Stan who travel a lot, are especially vulnerable to these groups, if he wants to keep his head on his shoulders he should avoid these areas like the plague, Americans are a prime target to these guys.

I was in the Congo during the worlds's first  Ebola outbreak there, Not much you can do about their love of bush-meat  eating virus carrying bats should be a no-no to every African but there are always some who ignore the rules.  This is how nature sorts out the population problem in a way very unforgiving of mistakes.

A sign of hope is the recent peace agreement between Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Libya has a UN backed government and a rival strong man, I doubt the UN will put boots on the ground to save the government, so the next chapter will be a new Gaddafi type leader in due course.  In western societies that have been democratic for 200 years, it is difficult to understand that this model does not translate well to tribal societies, liberals are mystified, but the Russians seem to get it better than we do, and how we despise them for it.

The Who got the message way back, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss",  Let's hope, we don't get fooled again!

My personal feeling is that climate change is happening much quicker than anticipated and will overtake events on a scale  hitherto unimaginable, whole areas of the world will become uninhabitable because of the heat, there will famine and mass migration as a result.   I may live to see some of this happen, but I really feel for my kids and especially my grandchildren, they will have to live through the population maximum, so God help them.

DaveP

Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2018, 04:52:53 AM »
I just spent a little time reviewing previous posts in this topic , I do see a tendency to overintellectualise ,and while I salute the efforts people are making with their writings ,Im not sure if it only ends up making the info contained within less accessible.

One news item up for grabs this morning is the case taken against J&J ,it seems 20 or so women in the US have sued 'the family company' for adulterating talc powder with asbestos ,which has been linked with cervical cancer.

In relation to the catholic churches prohibition on birth control ,theres another side to this some of you may not realise, The vatican for a period of time late last century actually invested its cash in condom production , during this time a substance known as 'nonoxynol 9' was part of the formulation ,the original  idea for including this industrial detergent was as a  spermicide. Over time ,studies were done on the effectiveness mainly in Africa , what was found was that this 'nonoxy' was damaging the 'mucus membranes' of prostitutes who used them ,and actually leaving them more vulnerable to HIV infection in the longer term .
So maybe there is afterall some truth to the message the catholic church send out in Africa that 'Condoms dont stop you from getting Aids' , seems like they knew more than they were saying in any case though.

I venture the cull is well underway already Dave but you choose not to see it, of course it not a Nazi like final solution ,its more subtle ,like good and bad personal choices we have to make ,what we eat,who or how many people we have sex with ,what medicines/drugs we take. Way back before science it was known that promiscuity was rewarded  with a shorter life ,many religions asserted it was gods way of paying us back for being bad , we have proof now that the system itself is putting us in harms way by neglegence or design ,choose wisely .

Just going to grab a coffee before digesting your new post .


Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2018, 07:10:03 AM »
Theres really a lot in your last post I have trouble swallowing Dave , so Im going to try and address some of the points logically ,dispassionately and hopefully without causing personal insult.

If your looking to filter bias ,would it not be clever to take your news from a wider pool ?  the news sources you quoted all sing from the same hymn sheet as far as I can see.

Not only have the west interviened(when it suits us of course) ,we've actively 'backloaded' civil wars way ahead of time , its not unlike a long range bet that people in the know get to speculate on .

You accuse Russia of things the west itself has been up to its balls in for centuries  ,two prime examples of this are Saddam Housein ,who at one point was very much in the favour of the west, remember when Donald Rumsfeldt sold the Iraqi leader Chineese cluster bombs ,which still maim and kill to this day . Ghadafi was another example of this ,these guys fall out of favour later on ,and in the rush to right our own wrongs ,their people and their countries are turned to dust. What about the massachre's in Sudan ,meanwhile all visible satelite imagery is already block booked by the same power mongers who stir the pot .

Nice and simple to lay Africas problems squarely at their own doorstep ,but can you not see its our sense of entitlement to technology/resources thats driving this greed in the first place .

I dont really see how travel isnt a good thing ,sure because of the history of the flag you fly ,you could become a target in these places ,thats a fair point . The alternative of not travelling outside your own back yard means your more likely to take your own governments propaganda hook line and sinker without asking questions.

Re natures way of population control ,yeah fair point ,bats are full of nasty viruses and all sorts that are very dangerous to humans. There certainly seems to be efforts on behalf of the west to engineer nature in such a way  that it provides opperational cover for itself ,while putting the poorest least educated at even more risk ,you can choose to deny or pretend its not happening ,but for me there already more than enough evidence on the table of this.

You may consider yourself personally above tribalism ,but take for instance the soccer football ,is it not a pure manifestation of the 'need to belong' or 'wolf pack' mentality, its almost no different tribalism  as far as Im concerned.

You might think I'm sitting here seething with anger towards you ,Im not at all ,Im glad to see you back posting in Brewery ,despite some fundamental differences in opinion ,your views actually help me to refine my own points. 



Oh yes almost forgot ,  I meant to post this link for all of your perusal ,the intention isnt to enter into a debate on the origin of the documents ,but dig a little deeper into the message contained within ,its almost like a blueprint for the methodology the west uses to take land/resources .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Its certainly 'heavy dark matter' so small chunks at a time and once the penny drops ,you'll have probably extracted most of the good from it in any case. 


« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:23:23 AM by Tubetec »

DaveP

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2018, 08:21:13 AM »
Quote
If your looking to filter bias ,would it not be clever to take your news from a wider pool ?  the news sources you quoted all sing from the same hymn sheet as far as I can see.
That's a fair point, I did try Al Jazeera for a while, but got suspicious when everything seemed to have a Palestinian angle thrown in.
I don't trust American news or Russian come to that, so it kind of limits my choice to what I have, any suggestions?

What you are saying is that you can't even trust the BBC which is stacked with left wing liberals?

I am instinctively wary of conspiracy theories, I was astonished to find that later generations thought the Moon landings were staged.  The Russians tracked the Americans there and back and would have been the first to cry foul during the Cold War.

I will never take offence from a fellow Irish man ;)

I agree that the West has done just as bad things in the recent past as Russia.  Most of it was justified by the west under the cold war banner, not to me though.  However, more recently we have taken a much more liberal stance compared to back then.  Being 12 years old in Oct 62 during the Cuban Missile crisis, when they were testing the air raid sirens certainly brought it into sharp focus!

When you say that it is our thirst for resources that is driving African problems, that implies that they are not fit to trade.
America can export wheat and soya without corruption, Australia can export beef and iron ore to China without corruption.
The reason that Africa has problems is corrupt government which diverts backhanders and commissions to the fortunate few.  When Africa manages to get democracy and government accountability right, then they should be able to trade ethically like any other nation, to think otherwise would be a racist slur that I'm sure you did not intend.

In the past, only Newspaper Barons could control the news, then later you needed a TV station too.  Nowadays anyone can post fake news so the waters are very muddy indeed.

DaveP



Soundcloud: Delayed Action.

boji

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2018, 05:03:08 AM »
Quote
Now with automation and robots, many are wondering how long the Human Resource scheme is going to last. Seven billion is going to be a lot of people out of work.
Universal basic income is a possible solution to this but it doesn't seem to interest anyone . Not sure why as the unemployment problem  is inevitable.

Quote
The countries that are getting the infrastructure assistance from China are making radical improvements.
In exchange for what? There is no free lunch. Plenty of interest rate payments come due off of infrastructure 'assistance'.  Call it a silk road initiative if you wish, but I doubt  China has rewritten the rules to the natural resource cash grab game.
Quote
If that money was used to create a secure sustainable society for those living in it.
Certainly the US could do with more carrot and less stick, but shall we ignore the fact that the US is largest donor of foreign aid, second only to the EU?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors
Also it is naive to think foreign military operations are always lawless unilateral affairs. Private companies and local leaders buy our protection and sometimes they like to exercise their side of contract. Besides, we are not the only country offering military backing in exchange for access to resources, therefore most Interventions are carefully assessed for surrogate country blowback. This includes getting non-official tacit approval from foreign governments for the interventions. You think they don't also hold their hand out and get something in exchange before giving the green light?

Quote
By living on myths about the world
You paint China to be some exemplar of human rights and magnanimity. This also courts myth.

aggression is what is driving  the migration.
Famine, civil war, tribal unrest, lack of medical care, hyperinflation, religion, brain drain, superstition, inaccess to clean water, despotic leaders; these drive migration as well, and are not always the fault of US foreign policy.

When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2018, 08:46:37 AM »
You paint China to be some exemplar of human rights and magnanimity. This also courts myth.


He never did that, did you just make it up? This is what dude said.

Quote
The countries that are getting the infrastructure assistance from China are making radical improvements. For example with the new ports, airports, cargo transit systems, high speed rail, dams, schools and power systems,  poverty has been cut dramatically, not with money aid but assistance in essential infrastructure, without crippling IMF loans that destroy almost every developing country's economy that allows them.

And then you say -

Quote
Also it is naive to think foreign military operations are always lawless unilateral affairs. Private companies and local leaders buy our protection and sometimes they like to exercise their side of contract. Besides, we are not the only country offering military backing in exchange for access to resources, therefore most Interventions are carefully assessed for surrogate country blowback. This includes getting non-official tacit approval from foreign governments for the interventions. You think they don't also hold their hand out and get something in exchange before giving the green light?

Well there it is. The US military is responsible for providing killers/diers for capital. No problem with that though, boji? It'd be 'naive', instead of 'properly sociopathic'.

-
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 12:34:37 PM by tands »
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

boji

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2018, 12:32:37 PM »
Quote
did you make it up?
...Or no.

No.

Quote
No problem with that though, boji?
What is, is not the same thing as what should be so.

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2018, 12:43:26 PM »
Sounds like you were all for it, man. Until you got called on it.

You were just trying to justify it and come up with some counterpoint to dude, imply he's naive and anyone who disagreed with the US's policies were too. Not you though. You should sit and listen to dude, he of the 90 countries.

You could probably learn a thing or two what's his face Jordan Peterson doesn't know.
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2018, 04:35:56 PM »
Quote
Awful scene on the orange line. A woman’s leg got stuck in the gap between the train and the platform. It was twisted and bloody. Skin came off. She’s in agony and weeping. Just as upsetting she begged no one call an ambulance. “It’s $3000,” she wailed. “I can’t afford that.”

https://twitter.com/GlobeMCramer/status/1012814279857360896
When you make imprisonment a source of profit for the capitalist class, every single person's freedom is at risk. - LTrotsky21

boji

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2018, 10:45:19 PM »
SPbStan, I should have said hello first, and welcomed you to the pub last night. My apologies, as it was 3am and I was a bit out of it.

At any rate, I appreciate your cautionary words and personal story, I also appreciate your concerns about the dirty tactics of hegemony. I was simply struck by how one sided your argument was about the US.
Someone said the other day that rang true to me, "A logical discussion can not function when tactical arguments are disguised as logical arguments that must be processed accordingly."
The "I'm right- it's self evident why- there's nothing left to discuss" type of tone.  It is not very helpful at creating the change in perception one would desire in one's audience.
A better argumentative method is to learn to 'steel man' one's claims (we could all be better at this), which means to anticipate the criticisms of your opponent by laying them out as part of your argument in advance, and then refute them before getting to the primary position.  I suppose this was what I was standing-in for yesterday morning.

Sometimes I try to take the difficult-to-defend position that the US is inherently, universally good for the world--  only because I want and believe in a good and better US. This does not mean I stick my head in the sand regarding our wrongdoings. But the only way to become something better is to first decide it is in fact possible, and that we are redeemable as a people.
"Evil" can not be reformed, it can only be sent over a cliff to die.
Another concern I have is the assumption- made more and more lately- that takes for granted that the greatest source of 'evil' can be defined and restricted to where those little lines that crisscross the map of the globe show. It assumes, in the case of the US, that were it not for what the US and its vast network of willing partners do in the world, the world would magically be peaceful and utopian. It only takes a moment to realize that if power is a universal desire of people, and people are comprised of nations, then no self-respecting country would see an empty peak on a mountaintop and not rush up to claim it with all their weapons at the ready.  The exception being perhaps a place like Switzerland or Tibet.  But human nature does not so much as blink at the stretching or contracting of established moral norms. Not historically. History shows us just how easily it is to go from peaceful best intentions to bombing noncombatants with chemical weapons.  Had the US not sold itself to the rest of the world and defended its interests in the way in which it has,  it can not be then assumed that the world would naturally have settled into peaceful systems of goodwill and trade. One can't also assume that the general rise in the quality of living, reduction of infant mortality, and general rise income all across the globe would not have been what it is either. Even poor nations are, generally speaking, globally faring better than rich nations did a hundred years ago.

DaveP

Re: Unplanned population growth
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2018, 04:09:01 AM »
@Bogi
I agree.

It is always better to show that you appreciate other peoples views of a situation, rather than just  ascertaining  that you are always right.  History when first written never has all the facts,  the truth gets refined as more facts come out decades later.

The idea that America is the Universal Satan is propaganda.   America is composed of immigrants from every country on earth, so to condemn them all condemns oneself.  Individuals in government is another matter.   The American constitution is a well conceived document produced from the most enlightened thought 231 years ago, it has freedom as its core value.  This was of course compromised by the need for slave labour at the time, so not an entirely perfect set of ideals, but some improvement came later.

Every government is elected to put the interests of its own citizens first, generally this takes the path  of "enlightened self-interest" when working with other countries.  Sometimes, from fear and paranoia it has involved direct interference in another country with generally bad results, this happened far too many times during the cold war.

It seems to me, that politics attracts several personality types, the dedicated public servants,  the self serving types and the most determined.  Soft kind people almost never enter government office, they are trampled underfoot long before that.  Having stated the obvious, there are still a great many who want to change the world for the better, but do not expect perfection in anyone, we all have our flaws (even me dammit :o).

There are countries in the world that despise freedom for religious or ideological reasons.  The reason for that is that they need to control their populations, so freedom is anathema to them, and hence, so is America and Western democracy in general.  So no western music, no dancing, strict control and subjugation of women.  Suppression of demonstrations, indoctrination in schools, etc etc.

My advice to SPbStan, is to settle down somewhere  he can tolerate the best, he ain't gonna find perfection in this world, even though he still has around 105 countries still to visit. ::)

DaveP

Soundcloud: Delayed Action.


 

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