Genuine Neumann versus Thiersch Capsules

Hi all! I'm considering doing an AMI U47 kit. I was thinking of either going with the stock Thiersch K47 or M7 capsules that AMI sell as part of the kit, but I have also wondered whether it might take the mic to a whole other level if I used a genuine Neumann capsule instead. Specifically, a new Neumann K49 (I understand this is the same as the K47, but with a more closely matched backplate?).  OR, I have wondered if it might be possible to get a vintage original 50s/60s Gefell CMV563 M7 capsule and take it out of the 'lollypop' grill and use it in my build? I'd feel a little bad doing that to a pristine piece of old equipment, but if it helped me get 'that' U47 sound for a fraction of the price...

At any rate, I suppose my question boils down to: is it worth an extra $700+ to go that route over the Thiersch?
I'm also curious as to the main differences between the K47 and M7 - I will do more research on this myself, as I know that topic has already been touched on many times. But if anyone wants to chime in on that too, I wouldn't stop ya.

Any help would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Dan

Kroc said:

Hi all! I'm considering doing an AMI U47 kit. I was thinking of either going with the stock Thiersch K47 or M7 capsules that AMI sell as part of the kit, but I have also wondered whether it might take the mic to a whole other level if I used a genuine Neumann capsule instead. Specifically, a new Neumann K49 (I understand this is the same as the K47, but with a more closely matched backplate?).  OR, I have wondered if it might be possible to get a vintage original 50s/60s Gefell CMV563 M7 capsule and take it out of the 'lollypop' grill and use it in my build? I'd feel a little bad doing that to a pristine piece of old equipment, but if it helped me get 'that' U47 sound for a fraction of the price...

At any rate, I suppose my question boils down to: is it worth an extra $700+ to go that route over the Thiersch?
I'm also curious as to the main differences between the K47 and M7 - I will do more research on this myself, as I know that topic has already been touched on many times. But if anyone wants to chime in on that too, I wouldn't stop ya.

Any help would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Dan

Click to expand...

I’d imagine it would be the law of deminishing returns regarding a 700$ additional spend. You’d need a VF14 and a original Transformer as well to nail the u47 sound. Interesting topic though wonder what others take on it.

KDE said:

I’d imagine it would be the law of deminishing returns regarding a 700$ additional spend. You’d need a VF14 and a original Transformer as well to nail the u47 sound. Interesting topic though wonder what others take on it.

Click to expand...

Right - I suppose I primarily just mean overall quality, capsule versus capsule.
As beautiful as the original sound is, I have no interest in paying over $3k for an original VF14. Not to mention, I don't even know where you'd source a 'real' Neumann BV.08. But I'm a self-producing artist, not a collector, and if money were no object I'd probably be quite happy with a reissue Telefunken U47 for day to day use anyway.
Reliability, cost-effectiveness, and longevity are important to me too, and using those super expensive vintage components for total authenticity conflicts with that. I feel like if you're comfortable putting $3k into a single tube, at that point you might as well just save a little more and buy an original U47.

I could conceivably use a VF14K in the build, which are a little more affordable at $750. But that's still pricey to replace if it goes bad. To be fair, if I went that route with a Neumann capsule and VF14, I'd still be around $2.5k versus $9k for the Tele mic. Speaking of the Telefunken clone, it says it has an M7 capsule in it... is anyone aware of who makes it?

The bottom line for me is that I just want an awesome-sounding mic that will give that huge vocal sound for male singer-songwriter material. And not have to worry about it sounding different from day to day because of aging components that I will eventually have to spend a fortune more on replacing when they fail. I'm guessing an AMI kit with a Neumann K49 capsule and VF14K tube would at least kick most other non-vintage vocal mics in the butt.

Hi,
i tested genuine Neumann K49, Thiersch M7 (red) and Thiersch K47 (Flea backplate), Dany D7, Beesneez K7.
I prefer Neumann's capsule. Period.
It has the most realistic medium range, the fastest transients, beautiful  lows.
Thierschs are more dark and slow (less true for the K47) , they all sound very good however but they definitely haven't the Neumann's original sound. They all have their own signatures.
If you want to get close to the U47, i'd recommend you the K49.
The tube and transformer have far less influences on sound.

Neumann K49, ef12k or ef14 with proper circuit, AMI,Flea or Moby BV8 , Danny Bouchard body, and you'll get it...

best regards
Fred

I'd always go for the Thiersch. Siegfried Thiersch worked over 20 years at Neumann & Gefell. He knows his business and in all the blind tests we did his capsules brought so much more emotion to the table - it's outstanding.

If I were allowed to post some files I'd love to show you a recording we did for a Universal artist were we had to re-record some vocals in a second session. The first session was done with a DIY Poctop U47 with Thiersch and old Siemens Tubes, the second one with an original vintage U47 in really good condition from the 60s (Echoschall) both through a Neve 1073. You can't hear a difference. No one could tell. And we have really really experienced and super critical engineers in the team.
That blind test was really fun. Thiersch is the real deal.

JRJR said:

I'd always go for the Thiersch. Siegfried Thiersch worked over 20 years at Neumann & Gefell. He knows his business and in all the blind tests we did his capsules brought so much more emotion to the table - it's outstanding.

Click to expand...

granger.frederic said:

Hi,
i tested genuine Neumann K49, Thiersch M7 (red) and Thiersch K47 (Flea backplate), Dany D7, Beesneez K7.
I prefer Neumann's capsule. Period.

Click to expand...

:-\
Lol. Now I'm extra undecided! Haha.
Suffice to say, there are fans of both capsules?

JRJR said:

If I were allowed to post some files I'd love to show you a recording we did for a Universal artist were we had to re-record some vocals in a second session. The first session was done with a DIY Poctop U47 with Thiersch and old Siemens Tubes, the second one with an original vintage U47 in really good condition from the 60s (Echoschall) both through a Neve 1073. You can't hear a difference. No one could tell. And we have really really experienced and super critical engineers in the team.
That blind test was really fun. Thiersch is the real deal.

Click to expand...

I'd love to hear that! If I sent you my email address, would it be at all possible for you to send links? There are so few samples of these mics to listen to.

Cheers,
Dan

Kroc said:

:-\
Lol. Now I'm extra undecided! Haha.
Suffice to say, there are fans of both capsules?

Click to expand...

I must admit that Thiersch sounds OK, but Neumann  K49 sounds better.  Well, in this case you get what you pay for.

K49 ( Neumann , new) - more highs after 10 kHz than any m7,  less body (200-400Hz), a bit too much ( except good VF14) 2kHz.
Thiersh M7 Red = just fine, not equal to earlier Gefell/Neumann in color of high freq-s.
IMHO, it works better with higher feeding voltage~70-75VDC,
Thiersh Blue M7 less highs after 8 Hz,then Red , a bit more presence (5-6 kHz).
Gefell (new)  : less low end than all others,
Gefell/Neumann old - just fine, with right Neumann-ish color in highes and presence.
The best choice fore M7 sound- Red Thiersh ( most reliable capsule)

don't forget that dips and bumps are headbasket dependent also.
i can't see how a tube can influence the frequency response...??? As there's no filter inside, the headamp is 20-20khz flat in a U47.
Anyway, a frequency response can't tell how a capsule sounds.
For me, Neumann definetly sounds more 3D and realistic, it has the more cohesive response between the different audio ranges, even if all the pre-named capsules are very good.

Not to throw another wrench in it all, but my preference has been Dany’s D7 if not going full-on brand new Neumann.

Yes i tested D7.
a friend lent me one for a week, recently.
it sounds very good , very well built,  very delicate sound, but not a "perfect" Neumann clone, it has its own signature, a more "vintage sound" perhaps, it sounds a bit like the blue Thiersch...
it depends what you're looking for.

I remember a test with the Beezneez M7 also , and it sounded too dark but it had a diaphragm gluing issue, i returned it.

Theoretically, as it has the same backplate design, a Neumann K49 (or K47) sounds like the original M7, but with a bit more highs, probably due to the Mylar diaphragm evolution instead of PVC...

As the PVC could crackle with time , i'd go for some Mylar.

I'm running a Thiersch. Siegfried Blue line PVC in my AMI 47. I've done a bunch of comparisons with original U47's. The AMI comes very close indeed. The Neumann was ever so slightly better in the high end. In a blind test it would be hard to pick between the 2. Listening to the each mic channel within a mix and you'd be hard pressed to pick the difference at all.

I built Danny's version of the AMI47    https://cdn.groupbuilder.com/groupdiy/u/39511/58d1402a0713c.pdf


When I built my mic I did i changed out R1 & R2 1G resistors with R1 60meg & R2 100meg as per the original circuit. This small change including particular attention to the heater voltage 5.05v (at the tube) and 105v B+, a NOS tube from Christian Whitemore and I have engineers lining up to use the mic. 

Either way you choose to go you won't be disappointed. Oliver nailed it.

Kroc said:

The bottom line for me is that I just want an awesome-sounding mic that will give that huge vocal sound for male singer-songwriter material.

Click to expand...

Many microphones answer this definition. In many cases, what sets apart a vintage U47 is its wow factor, not its sound. The guy who sings into a vintage U47 knows that he is singing in a 30 grand mic with a 60 year pedigree, and is treading a path that has been open by Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley.
No DIY can replace that. A big ingredient in owning a U47 is being able to brag about it.
Now, if you don't have a world-class singer, can you expect this "huge vocal sound"?
For an objective listener, the only one we should care about, the difference between a 47 and most more-than-decent LDC's is elusive; in fact there may be more difference between two 47's than between a 47 and a good clone.

abbey road d enfer said:

Many microphones answer this definition. In many cases, what sets apart a vintage U47 is its wow factor, not its sound. The guy who sings into a vintage U47 knows that he is singing in a 30 grand mic with a 60 year pedigree, and is treading a path that has been open by Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley.

Click to expand...

Around 10K for a decent one.

30K is for exceptional 251's.

abbey road d enfer said:

The guy who sings into a vintage U47 knows that he is singing in a 30 grand mic......No DIY can replace that.

Click to expand...

I think a DIY mic can bring some of that magic for the builder. Kroc, this is mainly for your own use, right? Knowing you have a genuine K49 could make that difference that makes you pull out a magical performance. Just keep in mind that no matter who here believes that the Neumann K49 is worth the extra $$$, it's possible Dany's, Ben's, etc capsule could be the best match for your voice. There's no way to know that before building just know that whatever one you use, you'll get a good mic.

abbey road d enfer said:

...in fact there may be more difference between two 47's than between a 47 and a good clone.

Click to expand...

I love this. For studio owners, having that brand can be important in attracting clients. If you can avoid the temptation of obsessing over re-creating the originals, the DIY route can get you a great quality mic.

I just had a thought. Is this your first (or even second) DIY mic? If so, I'd advise against using a genuine K49. The chance of damaging it is too high to spend that much money. If you do decide to go the K49 route, build with a cheap Chinese capsule and get the mic sounding good. You don't want to be troubleshooting Hi-Z issues with an expensive capsule in there.

Some poor building techniques that can be forgiven in other DIY projects will create major issues in a mic.

abbey road d enfer said:

Many microphones answer this definition. In many cases, what sets apart a vintage U47 is its wow factor, not its sound. The guy who sings into a vintage U47 knows that he is singing in a 30 grand mic with a 60 year pedigree, and is treading a path that has been open by Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley.
No DIY can replace that. A big ingredient in owning a U47 is being able to brag about it.
Now, if you don't have a world-class singer, can you expect this "huge vocal sound"?
For an objective listener, the only one we should care about, the difference between a 47 and most more-than-decent LDC's is elusive; in fact there may be more difference between two 47's than between a 47 and a good clone.

Click to expand...

Hiya!

I'm a self-producing solo artist, and no, I don't expect my technology to make me 'sound pro', haha. That seems to be a rampant cliché amongst people looking for cheap access to the U47 vibe. Actually, I'm extremely happy using an 87 most of the time, but the engineer in me gets tube condenser FOMO. I've actually heard that the crooners you mentioned used RCA 77DXs, and only used the 47s in press shots because they were more photogenic or something - and I recently acquired a 77 because I love the tone. So I have that any time I feel like treading that path anyway.

My regular chain is a 1971 Neumann U87 into an Avedis MA5, which basically always gets me where I need to go - that mic matches my voice perfectly, and it always gives a workable sound. But it is a little bit dark and woolly. Lately I've been looking for a tube LDC alternative to see if I can get an even bigger, warmer, more detailed vibe. I tried the Chandler REDD, but did not care for it one bit. Super harsh on my voice. I had a chance to sing through a 1950s U47 about a month ago with original VF14 and M7 (first time using one). Going into a vintage Neve 1066, I believe (so, about a $15-$20k vocal chain). It was a little more present, and I liked what it was doing in the midrange, but it was actually a little thin (wondering if the M7 might have dried out). Definitely didn't make the vocal sound $15k better. We mostly used a vintage U67 and an RCA 77DX for the actual takes. The 67 was a bit smoother, fuller, and airier, and seemed like a pretty good match for my sound.

That said, I still like the 47 vibe. Many of my favourite intimate singer-songwriter records were done using one on lead vocals. I think a good one might suit my voice well too. My primary motivation here is that I -could- get a Flea 47 to experiment with that sound more, but for the same price or significantly less I could build a unique clone myself with higher quality components (e.g. a genuine Neumann capsule) and have a great-sounding recording tool. But fail that, I'm still considering just saving for a reissue U67 instead, because I'm sure that will cover my bases and provide some 'wow factor' for clients. I'm curious to know how a blinged-out AMI 47 would compare to one sonically.

Building a 47-type sounds fun though! I'd love to hear some samples, if anyone has them?

Banzai said:

Around 10K for a decent one.

30K is for exceptional 251's.

Click to expand...

OK, it's been a while since I bought one 

Thanks for all the other feedback also, by the way!!

Delta Sigma said:

I think a DIY mic can bring some of that magic for the builder. Kroc, this is mainly for your own use, right? Knowing you have a genuine K49 could make that difference that makes you pull out a magical performance. Just keep in mind that no matter who here believes that the Neumann K49 is worth the extra $$$, it's possible Dany's, Ben's, etc capsule could be the best match for your voice. There's no way to know that before building just know that whatever one you use, you'll get a good mic.

I love this. For studio owners, having that brand can be important in attracting clients. If you can avoid the temptation of obsessing over re-creating the originals, the DIY route can get you a great quality mic.

Click to expand...

Hey, thanks! This is good advice. Yes, this is mainly for my own use. And I'm building a smaller project studio, and would like to have the 47 base covered. I know I'll be recording other singer-songwriters who will likely enjoy that sound too. I already have a couple of solid 'brand name' vocal mics. But plenty of studios use Flea, Wunder and Telefunken reissue 47s to stand in for the originals. As long as it sounds awesome, I'm not really fussed about the authenticity - in fact, if the new mic would potentially be a more reliable studio tool, I'd prefer that. I'm really just looking for the biggest, most flattering vocal sound I can pull from a mic.

Delta Sigma said:

I just had a thought. Is this your first (or even second) DIY mic? If so, I'd advise against using a genuine K49. The chance of damaging it is too high to spend that much money. If you do decide to go the K49 route, build with a cheap Chinese capsule and get the mic sounding good. You don't want to be troubleshooting Hi-Z issues with an expensive capsule in there.

Some poor building techniques that can be forgiven in other DIY projects will create major issues in a mic.

Click to expand...

This is my first build. I've built a guitar amp kit before, but that's about it. It's definitely something I'm keen to try, but I also don't want to blow something up, hehe.

Cheers,
Dan

Delta Sigma said:

I think a DIY mic can bring some of that magic for the builder.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify my comment, a DIY 47 can be very satisfying,  in regard to pride of ownership, but not as much as a vintage one, just like an American Shelby cannot inspire the same pride than a genuine AC Cobra.
However, in terms of performance, the DIY can be equal or even better.
I'm not a great fan of vintage...