Pro Audio Outboards Market Too Much Offer Than Required ?

SIXTYNINER · Sep 28, 2018

Just to talk about the today so large pro audio outboards offer ,
exploded in the last few years ,
(probably thanks to online availability of tech docs and build threads…)

so many clones ,
various with very low price than the original units and clones EU & USA made ,
thanks to China low cost production ,

many do the same things without substantial differences , front panel apart...

it is Too Much Offer Than Required ?
thanks for any post about .
cheers

gyraf · Sep 28, 2018

I think sharing information has been great for enabling creativity, but too many has been running in the same direction. Two years ago on MusikMesse Frankfurt, I counted 23 pultc clones.

On the other hand, Uli's recent pricing on klark-teknik-branded clones will probably knock out the bottom of the uninspired cloning market.

Jakob E.

living sounds · Sep 28, 2018

gyraf said:
I think sharing information has been great for enabling creativity, but too many has been running in the same direction. Two years ago on MusikMesse Frankfurt, I counted 23 pultc clones.

On the other hand, Uli's recent pricing on klark-teknik-branded clones will probably knock out the bottom of the uninspired cloning market.

Jakob E.

I've seen the wholesale prices of chinese knockoffs. The prices of these Klark Teknik clones are really hard to comprehend. They are well-built, use good transformers, quality control seems to be in place and they sound good. 200 EUR for such a Pultec clone including tax and 2 year warranty can't be beat by anyone, not even DIYers. It must be a problem for all the clone manufacturers.

SIXTYNINER · Sep 28, 2018

gyraf said:
I think sharing information has been great for enabling creativity…..

+ 1 and without any doubt , for sure .

gyraf said:
……...Two years ago on MusikMesse Frankfurt, I counted 23 pultc clones.…..
Jakob E.

wow , 23 pultc clones ? ..oh my god

(and no one sound as the original ?...)

living sounds said:
I've seen the wholesale prices of chinese knockoffs. The prices of these Klark Teknik clones are really hard to comprehend. They are well-built, use good transformers, quality control seems to be in place and they sound good. 200 EUR for such a Pultec clone including tax and 2 year warranty can't be beat by anyone, not even DIYers. It must be a problem for all the clone manufacturers.

chineses need Labor Unions as soon as possible ,
for rights protection , and human conditions safeguard ,

about 12 hours work a day for 50 dollars month , what a shame/crime !!!
not acceptable !

and Bangladesh worse yet ,

cheers

living sounds · Sep 28, 2018

SIXTYNINER said:
chineses need Labor Unions as soon as possible
for rights protection , and human conditions safeguard ,

12 hours work a day for 50 dollars month , what a shame !!!
not acceptable !

cheers

Yes, but the Klark Teknik products have lower retail prices than chinese OEM goods while maintaining a much higher quality standard. Labor costs should be the same between both.

SIXTYNINER · Sep 28, 2018

living sounds said:
Yes, but the Klark Teknik products have lower retail prices than chinese OEM goods while maintaining a much higher quality standard. Labor costs should be the same between both.

yess , i know about the "KT 76" , EQP-KT , and other devices …
200 bucks for a rack mount device ,
then a 500 size price will be 80-100 bucks ?
(Behringer China Labs ?….. )

will be this the next future of pro audio outboards ?

hi end mixing consoles apart like neve , api ,
or "someone" will put his hand also on them ?

… with that price for 1 device , they could put as well the76 rev A , B , C , D in the same box …. ;D

cheers
ps 1 :
What "W.A." think about KT76?

ps 2 :
After Harman , Behringer run the companies ?

living sounds · Sep 28, 2018

SIXTYNINER said:
yess , i know about the "KT 76" , EQP-KT , and other devices …
200 bucks for a rack mount device ,
then a 500 size price will be 80-100 bucks ?
(Behringer China Labs ?….. )

will be this the next future of pro audio outboards ?

hi end mixing consoles apart like neve , api ,
or "someone" will put his hand also on them ?

… with that price for 1 device , they could put as well the76 rev A , B , C , D in the same box …. ;D

cheers
ps 1 :
What "W.A." think about KT76?

ps 2 :
After Harman , Behringer run the companies ?

Again, no argument about the labor and other "externalities" problems here. But the results of applying off-shore manufacturing, modern logistics and manufacturing abilities and the economies of scale to pro audio devices are truly stunning. Just sourcing the parts for a Pultec clone sets you back 3-4 times as much as Behringer wants for a complete device with warranty and all.

SIXTYNINER · Sep 28, 2018

living sounds said:
Again, no argument about the labor and other "externalities" problems here. But the results of applying off-shore manufacturing, modern logistics and manufacturing abilities and the economies of scale to pro audio devices are truly stunning. Just sourcing the parts for a Pultec clone sets you back 3-4 times as much as Behringer wants for a complete device with warranty and all.

Yess , Correct !!
i built some "jakob" diy project , and still building some other ….
and as for many other here and around the planet , it is a so pleasure about ,
specially when improvements are added…

but who only want make music , much more time to make music and fun with ….

but it's just a matter of time for Labor Unions "Effect / Fx " about ...
cheers

ps :
just a curiosity , there will be Behringer behind ( $$$ ) Thomann ?

living sounds · Sep 28, 2018

BTW, Behringer is also selling 500 size units under their Midas brand, which are inexpensive but not inexplicably so. At least to me a TL074 based EQ in 500 format for 333,- EUR makes more sense than a full size tube EQ for 200,- EUR.

JohnRoberts · Sep 28, 2018

gyraf said:
I think sharing information has been great for enabling creativity, but too many has been running in the same direction. Two years ago on MusikMesse Frankfurt, I counted 23 pultc clones.

The patent system is all about sharing technology (to advance scientific understanding) in return for temporary exclusivity.

On the other hand, Uli's recent pricing on klark-teknik-branded clones will probably knock out the bottom of the uninspired cloning market.

Jakob E.

This is perhaps ironic and Uli has a long history of "borrowing" other's ideas.

The clone business has zero to do with creativity, it just demonstrates how mush easier it is to manufacture electronics today than it was. I recall back in the 70s designing PCB with tape and exacto knives. Having to make multiple prototypes to get sub assemblies that fit and work together. Fast forward to now, and computers can eliminate multiple steps (and cost).

There is no reason for the clones to be expensive. Small production quantities is not a feature or benefit to the customer. If people want to sell new outboard products, design something actually novel.

JR

SIXTYNINER · Sep 28, 2018

living sounds said:
BTW, Behringer is also selling 500 size units under their Midas brand, which are inexpensive but not inexplicably so. At least to me a TL074 based EQ in 500 format for 333,- EUR makes more sense than a full size tube EQ for 200,- EUR.

that TL074 eq for 333 euro is from the hi range series live consoles ?
various days ago i've seen an online shop sell Midas 500 format modules for about 150-160 euro

JohnRoberts said:
The clone business has zero to do with creativity, it just demonstrates how mush easier it is to manufacture electronics today than it was. I recall back in the 70s designing PCB with tape and exacto knives. Having to make multiple prototypes to get sub assemblies that fit and work together. Fast forward to now, and computers can eliminate multiple steps (and cost).

it is true
but what salary difference between :
EU or USA and Chinese
Expert electronics designer ?

(only a not made in China rack enclosure with engraved front panel require more than 100 bucks)

JohnRoberts said:
There is no reason for the clones to be expensive. Small production quantities is not a feature or benefit to the customer. If people want to sell new outboard products, design something actually novel.
JR

but what else can be created for analog audio processing ?

just as well :
what money difference between :
2 Teletronix LA2A + 2 Urei 1176 + 2 Pultec EQP Original
And
2 KT 2A + 2 KT 76 + 2 KT EQP Clones

cheers

JohnRoberts · Sep 28, 2018

SIXTYNINER said:
but what else can be created for analog audio processing ?

cheers

Not much, as analog processing is borderline obsolete.

Maybe ask customers what they want? They told Uli they want cheap me-too (not that #metoo) clones. So he is giving them what they want.

JR

SIXTYNINER · Sep 30, 2018

JohnRoberts said:
Not much, as analog processing is borderline obsolete.
Maybe ask customers what they want? They told Uli they want cheap me-too (not that #metoo) clones. So he is giving them what they want.
JR

Probably from a purely technological point of view
especially for the industry always looking to reduce the cost of production
to earn more and more….
(too often on the skin of poor people)

also because to add sales power to the new product
even worse than the previous one
It is very convenient to classify it as obsolete
(only marketing strategy…..)

i.m.h.o. analog still sound better then any top quality DAW …

there is something like a sort of three-dimensionality that digital still does not have ,

also there is a considerable return of old 80-90s hi-fi market , original used pieces
(some absurd price apart , of the usual very not honest speculators..)

composed of a partial discovery of the new generations of young people
because as for the considerable return of Vinyl records
they find it so cool interact with knobs and switches , instead of the sterile touch screens
(cool front panels fashion apart)

and the rest from nostalgic ,
that in those years could not be allowed a complete quality hi-fi set due to the cost
or who owned it in that period and then sold it …..

but there is also included the factor that they understand the different sound that comes out of them…
( so easy to be better than mp3 …. )

about the low price by "public" demand ,
the Behringer reply
seem like a fly on an empty armchair by accident in the center of the crowded cinema hall during a first viewing ,
( all thanks to to the exploitation of poor low cost workers people )

The Harman strategy "strike" again ?
…… where are the "Jedys" ? ;D
cheers

Banzai · Sep 30, 2018

SIXTYNINER said:
What "W.A." think about KT76?

Warm started this race to the bottom, applying pressure to smaller companies who couldn't compete. Now someone's turning the screws on them... Capitalism at its best.

The garment industry is the biggest offender when it comes to abusing workers though. I imagine it's less of an issue in pro-audio, where product margins are much higher, and there's not as much pressure from clients to keep cutting costs.

ruffrecords · Sep 30, 2018

SIXTYNINER said:
chineses need Labor Unions as soon as possible ,
for rights protection , and human conditions safeguard ,

about 12 hours work a day for 50 dollars month , what a shame/crime !!!
not acceptable !

cheers

I hear this all the time. I started putting products into manufacture in China over30 years ago. Much the same comments as yours were made in the West at that time too. Trouble is, they are made mostly by people who have never been there. You have to remember a huge proportion of Chinese are rural peasants. They send the sons or daughters to the big manufacturing companies because a 12 hour working day for 50 dollars a month is easy money for them. The manufacturers provide accommodation, training, food and healthcare and workers can send most of their 50 dollars back home where it goes a long long way. You need to forget western values of cost of living and standard of living. They do not apply to the majority of Chinese.

Cheers

Ian

JohnRoberts · Sep 30, 2018

ruffrecords said:
I hear this all the time. I started putting products into manufacture in China over30 years ago. Much the same comments as yours were made in the West at that time too. Trouble is, they are made mostly by people who have never been there. You have to remember a huge proportion of Chinese are rural peasants. They send the sons or daughters to the big manufacturing companies because a 12 hour working day for 50 dollars a month is easy money for them. The manufacturers provide accommodation, training, food and healthcare and workers can send most of their 50 dollars back home where it goes a long long way. You need to forget western values of cost of living and standard of living. They do not apply to the majority of Chinese.

Cheers

Ian

Yes, but China has changed a ton since you and I were over there... Back when I was over there everybody rode bicycles to get around, now they have a thriving domestic car industry, and personal wealth has increased hugely.

Of course China is a massive country and still has poor backward regions, but is no longer the poor, cheapest game in town for everything. The threat of tariffs will drive some western vendors to China's competitors (like Viet Nam, etc)...But it can take years for manufacturers to change/re-source offshore manufacturing so we still have time for China to settle the current trade dispute (negotiation), but the clock is running, tick-tock.

JR

SIXTYNINER · Sep 30, 2018

Hi Ian

ruffrecords said:
I hear this all the time. I started putting products into manufacture in China over30 years ago. Much the same comments as yours were made in the West at that time too.

correct ,
but 30 years ago
no work and considerable unemployment problems in europe ,

many chances for who had ambitions and desire to work ,

and just to mention as well ,
already at that time,
various musical instruments and electronic devices producers like Yamaha and other ,
had part of the products came from Chinese factories and labors ,

( less clowns in politics ? with total respect for circus clowns )

ruffrecords said:
You have to remember a huge proportion of Chinese are rural peasants. They send the sons or daughters to the big manufacturing companies because a 12 hour working day for 50 dollars a month is easy money for them. The manufacturers provide accommodation, training, food and healthcare and workers can send most of their 50 dollars back home where it goes a long long way. You need to forget western values of cost of living and standard of living. They do not apply to the majority of Chinese.
Cheers
Ian

i know that 50 dollars month are good amount for the Chinese rural peasants ,
many of whom should live cultivating the land ,
but that unfortunately they can not, because of the bad disorganization ,

problem that they could solve with agricultural cooperatives system ,
what their government does about it ?

But why western company have to close , workers unemployed , families in crisis, and all related ..
for give 50 dollars month to them ?

Only to fill even more with money who (the 1%) already does not know where to put them anymore,
and not even know how many he owns ?

Nor does they even pay taxes because he systematically uses tax havens ,

A so 5 stars civil world

cheers

ps:
i know there is a so long thread about here ,
but , please Ian , if you like ,
could you tell me who really want Uk Brexit ?
most of the UK common people
or the famous 1% that push behind for .

living sounds · Sep 30, 2018

Most parts in the Klark Teknik devices are surface mount and thus get already assembled by robots. Putting the rest of a 19" unit together will soon be an easy task for a programmer and robot.

Expect robots to take over much of the production currently handled by unskilled or semi-skilled labor in the near future. This will be a huge problem for china, because robot factories will be bulit in the western countries rather than offshore.

JohnRoberts · Sep 30, 2018

living sounds said:
Most parts in the Klark Teknik devices are surface mount and thus get already assembled by robots. Putting the rest of a 19" unit together will soon be an easy task for a programmer and robot.

Expect robots to take over much of the production currently handled by unskilled or semi-skilled labor in the near future. This will be a huge problem for china, because robot factories will be bulit in the western countries rather than offshore.

Hon Hai the contract manufacturer who makes apple products in China announced several years ago that he was going to employ 1 million robots. That writing has been on the wall for many years and China knows. I suspect China will be making lots of robots, but no need for them to be located in China but it will take years for the entire supply chain to readjust.
---
That (supply chain) is why the NAFTA deal has so much momentum for automotive manufacturers. The supporting sub-assembly infrastructure for car makers routinely ships sub-assemblies across both borders in both directions. That is unlikely to be unwound easily or painlessly.

JR

[edit- as expected the Nafta 2.0 negotiation has been successful so the cross border auto business will likely survive mostly intact. I expect they will reduce the ability of China to sell subassemblies into canada or mexico to avoid US oversight (but I do not know exact details). Canada did relax their trade restrictions on US dairy, but won their preferred dispute resolution methodology.

There was a recent brouhaha when President Trump declined to meet with Trudeau at the UN , but seriously why should a neighboring leader be so needy as to expect to get face time, when hundreds of world leaders have travelled halfway around the world to be in NYC for the UN general assembly? [/edit]

SIXTYNINER · Sep 30, 2018

JohnRoberts said:
Hon Hai the contract manufacturer who makes apple products in China announced several years ago that he was going to employ 1 million robots. That writing has been on the wall for many years and China knows. I suspect China will be making lots of robots, but no need for them to be located in China but it will take years for the entire supply chain to readjust.
JR

so much probable that the next war will be against the robots

but workers against the robots ?

or something like
common people against the 1% ?
similar to what happened in France with the grip of the bastille

cheers

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