clintrubber

IC-pin 2nd opinion
« on: October 12, 2018, 07:22:35 AM »

I must have seen many many semiconductors of all kinds, both professionally & for DIY.

Now there's this ebay-seller that sells 'new' chips (as was stated & pictured in his auction),
but upon arrival I'd call these pulled/desoldered/preowned ICs. Could well work of course, no biggie, but that's not the issue.

I contacted him and the reply was simply "Our suppliers tell us that it is new"...  ::)

Please have a look (& ignore the poor quality of the picture) and tell me what you think.
I'm considering buying more of these, but might rather switch to another seller.

The good thing here though is that pulled ICs might more likely be non-fakes  ;)

Thanks!


scott2000

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 08:57:40 AM »
Hard to tell from pic.... I know sometimes the surplus store near me has 100s of chips just thrown in bins and they are new with some jacked looking pins. But there are plenty of operations that deal with pulling used chips from what I've read about. I've seen a few listing as such as well. Then there are stories of pulling and remarking them with different part numbers :-\

I agree with "known" pulls being a safe bet on rare items but, in the same token, I've had to pull some chips because they started to fail partially but still worked.  But if they are multiple pulls with exact numbers, maybe  a safer bet they work fine??

What ic is that?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:02:44 AM by scott2000 »

JohnRoberts

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 10:40:19 AM »
Used, not new....

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2018, 10:50:14 AM »
Tested? Self-programmed?

I think IC's in larger scale are made in very controlled environments..

clintrubber

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 05:05:00 AM »
Thanks, yes, hard to believe what the seller said. Haven't had a chance to test them yet (these are VCA's), so don't know yet if they're re-labeled or not.

Bye

JohnRoberts

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 10:47:23 AM »
It is remotely possible that they were soldered into boards for a production run then not used, so the "new" (cough) chips were unsoldered and resold.

Even if this is the case they are no longer new... Its hard to trust merchants in other time zones.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

pucho812

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 10:51:17 AM »
or your own time zone at times. We have a pro audio dealer here doing all kinds of dirty....

You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

Rochey

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 11:04:52 AM »
Most resellers found online (ebay, aliexpress etc) have no idea what they are selling. They don't know if they are functional, used/new, right devices or even the right package at times. They just know the part numbers.

Seriously. The Chinese especially, in markets etc, simply see this stuff as a commodity. Little black boxes with leads. Even with a translator in shenzhen,  when faced with a part that was becoming hard to source, over 6 different traders couldn't suggest a lower cost alternative.

My example (and I admit, I was young and dumb at the time) was that I had a schematic asking for a 2N2222 (metal can transistor) for $0.35 each. The TO-92 package equivalent - PN2222 was less than $0.01 each. My translator was smart enough to ask for a cross reference or a different package.

Seriously - if the part is important to you. just buy it from digikey or mouser.
Expat Audio Home: http://www.expataudio.com

JohnRoberts

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 11:23:17 AM »

My example (and I admit, I was young and dumb at the time) was that I had a schematic asking for a 2N2222 (metal can transistor) for $0.35 each. The TO-92 package equivalent - PN2222 was less than $0.01 each. My translator was smart enough to ask for a cross reference or a different package.
I remember when the 2n2222 was the goto NPN (and 2n2907 the PNP).
Quote
Seriously - if the part is important to you. just buy it from digikey or mouser.
+1.... Especially when a little uncertain of what you are doing, and how stuff works, why add another variable into the mix?

Back in the 70s for my kit business I tested all the ICs I sold in my kits 100% so I (we) would know that the parts were good, before the customer touched them. (Back in the 70s the manufacturing processes for ICs was not as robust as it is now, so some small fraction of new parts would be DOA, or marginal). By the '80s the ICs were reliable enough that I stopped testing them 100% for kits.   

Good parts are cheaper than not knowing when troubleshooting a circuit that isn't behaving (IMO).

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

Rochey

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 04:08:19 PM »
What breaks my heart in this process is how USPS are screwing over domestic suppliers with their shipping costs.
The shipping from China to USA is less than a dollar. Do do the same in the US costs so much more!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/11/05/how-the-usps-epacket-gives-postal-subsidies-to-chinese-e-commerce-merchants-to-ship-to-the-usa-cheap/#317d1c4840ca

If I'm only buying $1 of parts from digikey, why do I have to spend $6+ on shipping?

One of the reasons I do so much purchasing on aliexpress is that the shipping is typically included for sub $2.
In my mind, the ratio of shipping to product is much fairer.

Everyone talks about "buy american"-- I get it, I really do... but it only counts if the price is within ±15% including shipping.
Expat Audio Home: http://www.expataudio.com


JohnRoberts

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 05:06:22 PM »
What breaks my heart in this process is how USPS are screwing over domestic suppliers with their shipping costs.
The shipping from China to USA is less than a dollar. Do do the same in the US costs so much more!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/11/05/how-the-usps-epacket-gives-postal-subsidies-to-chinese-e-commerce-merchants-to-ship-to-the-usa-cheap/#317d1c4840ca

Indeed another example of China taking advantage of developing nation status... Time for them to pay the appropriate rate.

Just thinking out loud, maybe Digikey could open a warehouse in China to support the "shipping cost sensitive" customers.  :o :o
Quote
If I'm only buying $1 of parts from digikey, why do I have to spend $6+ on shipping?
Only $1 of parts?? Just think about the cost to process your $1 of parts order...  I have watched shipping costs creep up for years.

Right now I use USPS for shipping because they are cheaper but who knows how long that will be true?
Quote
One of the reasons I do so much purchasing on aliexpress is that the shipping is typically included for sub $2.
In my mind, the ratio of shipping to product is much fairer.
it's subsidized, not fairer.
Quote
Everyone talks about "buy american"-- I get it, I really do... but it only counts if the price is within ±15% including shipping.
;D ;D ;D  -20% was the magic percentage when customers embraced Chinese built MI audio products.

I suspect the American shipping cost is fair, and Chinese discount is an unfair advantage. You might not like this getting fixed because it will raise Chinese shipping cost, not lower US cost.  ::)

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

scott2000

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 05:52:19 PM »

:oOnly $1 of parts?? Just think about the cost to process your $1 of parts order... 

JR

+1 At least there's no minimum....I've seen those scary numbers on some items....

I go to an Ace hardware here where I'm at because they have an awesome isle of hard to find screws,nuts and bolts but every time I go there, I need someone to help find me where I need to look and they end up spending 10 minutes helping me get a couple of dollar's worth of screws..... I always feel kinda bad..... but for .25 to .75 a screw... I get over it a little.... still feel a little bad... ???

I know ordering  BOMs for some of these kits must be real fun for the guy pulling the parts.  1 cap here, 2 resistors there......  I try to have stock but I had to do sets of 10 on one Mouser order because it was just too expensive otherwise.... It had to have  taken time to get the order together....There were close to 100 different items.... I hope they made a decent enough profit off of the little money the order totaled..... I'm sure they have a good process that's quick though...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 06:06:00 PM by scott2000 »

benb

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 06:20:11 PM »
Thanks, yes, hard to believe what the seller said. Haven't had a chance to test them yet (these are VCA's), so don't know yet if they're re-labeled or not.

Bye
VCAs huh? Are these Roland (or supposed to be)?  A quick google reminds me of the part number: BA662

I suppose having solder on the pins COULD indicate "Authentic Pulls," on the other hand,  fakers go to extremes to put on fake info on chips, so it's not beyond plausibility that they would put solder on the pins and bend them up a little to make them look like pulls.

The big problem here is Roland (presuming this is the VCA [technically an OTA] you're looking for) ONLY makes these (or has these made) for their own use in their own products.  I doubt they're "easily" available for replacement use either. And even this presumes they're still made or still in stock in some Roland warehouse.

The point here (responding to Rochey, which would otherwise be good advice I agree with)  is this part will never be sold by Digikey, Mouser, Arrow or any other "Authorized" electronic parts distributor. The only 'legitimate' purpose is for repair of Roland gear that uses these.  If you're wanting to use it in your own design, check out the link below, or look for something similar that's currently made such as te LM13700. Also, with the SSM and CEM chips being remade, I'm hearing rumors of the legendary RCA chips CA3080 and CA3280 being remade.

I vaguely recall  a clone, and a short google brings me here. I'd get this and try it, and compare the in-circuit sound to an original.  Don't know if these are functionally the same (though that seems to be the claim) or the same schematic (seems unlikely Roland has allowed it to get out), but If you can't tell the difference, this looks like a good deal (I presume originals are going for more than $12):
https://synthcube.com/cart/open-music-labs-ba662-clone?search=ba662&description=true

ETA: Yeah, the originals are a bit pricey:
http://www.synthparts.com/

« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 06:27:15 PM by benb »

PRR

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
> I'm sure they have a good process

There's some videos. Here's one with Grant of MythBusters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3V5Oi9fdr4
This has baggie-eye views of the process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxqJhkTEcXo
A slick help-wanted ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxysNafG_A
"The Life of an Order":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ut7JDfRq18

DigiKey - started with a digital keyer and, despite Lancaster's scorn at their address, grew and grew. There do not seem to be so many gut-shots of DK, but you can go visit them:
https://www.visittrf.com/location/digi-key-corporation/
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:37:36 PM by PRR »

JohnRoberts

Re: IC-pin 2nd opinion
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 11:55:28 AM »
What breaks my heart in this process is how USPS are screwing over domestic suppliers with their shipping costs.
The shipping from China to USA is less than a dollar. Do do the same in the US costs so much more!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/11/05/how-the-usps-epacket-gives-postal-subsidies-to-chinese-e-commerce-merchants-to-ship-to-the-usa-cheap/#317d1c4840ca

If I'm only buying $1 of parts from digikey, why do I have to spend $6+ on shipping?

One of the reasons I do so much purchasing on aliexpress is that the shipping is typically included for sub $2.
In my mind, the ratio of shipping to product is much fairer.

Everyone talks about "buy american"-- I get it, I really do... but it only counts if the price is within ±15% including shipping.
Almost on cue, the Trump administration is renegotiating the International Postal Union agreement that sets these low intl postal rates from China. (they must be lurking on this forum).

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/411828-us-announces-intent-to-withdraw-from-international-postal-rate-system

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...


 

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