Yesterday's news would have ended a 'normal' presidency

Good read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/three-remarkable-things-about-michael-cohens-plea/577015/

Role model for a healthy nation.

living sounds said:

Good read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/three-remarkable-things-about-michael-cohens-plea/577015/

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wishing does not make it so....  :

There are different ways to interpret the recent news, one I choose is that after years the Mueller investigation is finally winding down, and while Cohen should know where some bodies are buried he is an admitted liar so can not be counted on as a credible witness. That said if he points to bodies/graves that would be news. A lying lawyer is not news.

I have long complained*** about these "process" prosecutions (lying to the government, congress or FBI). Special prosecutors routinely use this law to pressure witnesses to flip on others, or as a last resort to get a high profile perp walk for the media (like Martha Stewart) to look like they accomplished something.

If Mueller really had a smoking gun there wouldn't be so much arm waving over some low level (and not very bright) associates. We shouldn't be shocked that there are snakes in the commercial real estate wood pile (there are snakes every where these days including the church).

The real thing to look for is Mueller's "report" that is expected to be a road map for impeachment (unfortunately the democrats lack a super-majority, or majority at all in the senate).  So we can look forward to a lot of noisy investigations in the house, but nothing of consequence (this blocked legislature is generally good for the economy).

Keep in mind that a prosecutorial report is only telling one side of the story.... any defendant has the right to respond and offer a defense, so don't expect Mueller's report to be the last word. 

JR

*** My long time complaint is that we can get hard time for lying to government agents, while legislators and officials routinely lie to us with no consequences.  Harry Reid when confronted about his overt lies, laughed it off and said "well it worked" (Romney lost his election after Reid lied about his tax returns). I doubt Reid's lies single handedly cost Romney the election but it makes my point (lying with no conscience or remorse). Many are critical of Trump's inaccurate hyperbolic utterances, so add your list here.

JohnRoberts said:

*** My long time complaint is that we can get hard time for lying to government agents, while legislators and officials routinely lie to us with no consequences.

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My long time complaint with Republicans is false equivalency. Everyone lies all of the time. Usually without even realizing it. Are you going to tell you're wife that she doesn't look great? Are legislators going to tell their constituents that the guy they've been listening to on the radio is lying or are they just going to lie as well so that they can get re-elected reasoning that if they don't  they'll be replaced with someone that will lie even more? Is a diplomat a liar because they tell Abbas one thing and Netanyahu something completely different? Lying to federal investigators is serious but people actually very much do not do "hard time". Papadopoulos got 2 weeks and he wasn't completely cooperative.

Having said all that, I think people are foaming at the mouth a little over Cohens plea. It was reported in Buzzfeed a long time ago that Trump was perusing a deal in Russia. Everyone knows he lies like floor tiles. They just don't care that much because they see it as a means to an end that they would never otherwise reach. Unfortunately they don't seem understand that they're selling out.

JohnRoberts said:

If Mueller really had a smoking gun there wouldn't be so much arm waving over some low level (and not very bright) associates. We shouldn't be shocked that there are snakes in the commercial real estate wood pile (there are snakes every where these days including the church). .

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Mueller doesn’t seem to be doing the arm waving; extremely-loud, extremely-hard nosed, extremely-opinionated, things being only black and white seeing, entertainment people on both sides who try to present themselves as something else, are the ones doing the arm waving.

As a general statement, I feel anyone with a head screwed on straight can easily weed through all the rally cries from either side and deduce a somewhat reasonably close assessment.

That said, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not as if Trump is guilty by association. There’s no way he’s not one of the snakes. I don’t understand how anyone can think otherwise.

The response I hear is that they all are and they voted for the lesser of the two evils, as they always do.. However, his stuff has been stinking just as long; and now it’s starting to get out in the open. How would it be if we didn’t at least let the powers that be, as a nation, not try and deal with it? What kind of image does that show; even if nothing more than on the surface? How much more crime does that invite?

The other response is that yeah he’s a POS like everyone else, but justify it because he’s doing everything he campaigned on and the economy is doing so well. They’re probably right and it just shows the society we’re becoming. Without some dignity, at least in our general population, we won’t last.

It's a pretty dark time for the country.  That so many people are willing to be complicit with it and defend it makes it all the more depressing.  The magnitude of Trump's lies is stunning but hey, let's remember when Democrats said something not exactly true too - so... it's OK then? Team politics I guess.

scott2000 said:

Geez..... Like this kind of shady stuff is  news.....  Dealing with Russia????

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It's pretty apparent Trump and his cohort knew in advance that wikileaks was going to release hacked emails to smear the Democrats.  Russia obtained the emails illegally. Trump appears to have coordinated with them. Although Trump keeps saying 'collusion' -  the crime is conspiracy. It appears Trump and his cohort of swamp dwellers conspired with a foreign gov to steal documents from a Political opponent and release them as attack propaganda.
Trump was pursuing a hotel deal in Russia and lied about it to the American people (in a Presidential debate no less). Trump was negotiating giving Putin penthouse worth millions in the quid pro quo deal. Who knows what else was arranged?

scott2000 said:

Where does this leave us in regards to the shadiness of the "powers that be" and what the possibilities are of corruption on all levels? 

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It's just disgusting - money and power corrupts and attracts the worst.
We need to stop letting the negative propaganda against genuine good people manipulate us. There were a lot of great, vibrant new people elected into the house this cycle that actually want to make America great again (and they are already being attacked by the media machine). We need to eliminate the swamp dwellers. Democrats are planning to introduce an anti-corruption bill in January that will be a great start (expect the Republicans to fight it). 

I was just reading this Miami Herald series of articles on Jeffery Epstein and the sweetheart deal the Federal prosecutor gave him AND as part of it immunity was granted to potential co-conspirators (i.e. powerful men that also abused children). It's disgusting. Implicates Trump, Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz , Acosta (now part of Trump admin), Ken Starr, etc... If the investigation hadn't been squelched who knows how many powerful men would have gone to jail.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html

Will make you want to go take a bath in bleach.

Well shadiness and possibilities on both sides are nothing but that until the powers that be on both sides truly have enough evidence where I see it in our court systems and/or under oath. Until then, it’s mostly just angling, posturing, rhetoric, rally cries, etc. to get your vote for their causes... Because it works... Until it doesn’t. It’s up to us.

scott2000 said:

Geez..... Like this kind of shady stuff is  news.....  Dealing with Russia????

Hotels,Uranium,

tomatoes, tomatos....

====

Yesterday's news....

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For some recent Russia news, they recently seized a few Ukrainian ships to interrupt Ukraine's ability to trade with the larger world markets and weaken their economy in advance of their upcoming election. Putin has done stuff like this before large international meetings (G20 in Argentina right now) so he can swagger into the room like the bad boy he is (ex-KGB).

One notable photo op from G20  is Putin and the embattled Saudi prince exchanging a very friendly greeting, while other western leaders (including Trump) give the prince the cold shoulder. Putin would love to bring the Saudi prince into his sphere of influence, while the west pushes him away (international politics abhors a vacuum). The Russian economy is based on energy exports, so a super OPEC cartel  would help him leverage even more influence/power from his energy exports.

JR

PS: Maybe try to ignore the media side-show...  or at least ignore me..

The thing is: You (GOP fans / conservatives / etc.) don't see what Trump did this as an attack on your democracy, but instead the reaction to it as an attack on your team. Imagine the situation in the abstract. You might actually arrive at a different conclusion...

living sounds said:

The thing is: You (GOP fans / conservatives / etc.)

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who me?

don't see what Trump did this as an attack on your democracy,

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For the record we are not a simple democracy but a representative democracy and constitutional republic.  (I had to vote two different times this year because three candidates split the vote and there was a do over between the top two.)

I perceive continuous attacks on our constitution and republic. (FWIW when I was inducted into the army I swore an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, and AFAIK I have not been relieved of that oath, but don't try to get me back in uniform.) I actually spent time in Germany on NATO maneuvers (1970) protecting your right to speak freely and criticize us. The Soviet Union was a real threat to Western Europe (could be again if left unchecked).

but instead the reaction to it as an attack on your team.

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I (we) seem to get a lot of personal attacks around the WWW. Hillary (called us deplorable), then candidate Obama at a fund raiser was equally pejorative with a stereotype about "clutching bibles and guns").

Imagine the situation in the abstract. You might actually arrive at a different conclusion...

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I do appreciate that you are couching this as a matter of perspective and not that I am evil or ignorant, which are the popular goto pejoratives (one lady on FB called me a drummer  :  thinking that was an insult. ). 

JR

PS: Pretty amusing recent incident, Kevin Hart (well known comedian) threw a "cowboys and indians" themed birthday party for his one year old son. The twitterverse immediately declared him a racist who celebrated white supremacy and slavery. Seriously this is how bad the PC police are getting.

JohnRoberts said:

For some recent Russia news, they recently seized a few Ukrainian ships to interrupt Ukraine's ability to trade with the larger world markets and weaken their economy in advance of their upcoming election. Putin has done stuff like this before large international meetings (G20 in Argentina right now) so he can swagger into the room like the bad boy he is (ex-KGB).

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Just other side view: 3 Ukranian military(!) ships invaded into Russian territorial waters near Crimea bridge (strategically important object connecting peninsula with mainland Russia), didn't answer border guard service ships, dangerously maneuvered and were seized. After that Mr Poroshenko (Ukrainian president) imposed martial law in several Ukrainian regions, two months before the election. Polls say his chances to become a president for next presidential term are nothing.  Russian propaganda calls it provocation with obvious aim.
What happened in reality nobody knows, but assuming that "they recently seized a few Ukrainian ships to interrupt Ukraine's ability to trade with the larger world markets and weaken their economy in advance of their upcoming election" imo a very weak position.
No comments again about calling mr Putin "a bad boy". They are all bad boys (incl Trump) if you prefer make things simple.

JohnRoberts said:

I actually spent time in Germany on NATO maneuvers (1970) protecting your right to speak freely and criticize us. The Soviet Union was a real threat to Western Europe (could be again if left unchecked).

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Sorry for personal joke, John, but you're real hero, man!!!  ;D
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61194.msg900233#msg900233

ungifted said:

Sorry for personal joke, John, but you're real hero, man!!!  ;D
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61194.msg900233#msg900233

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Not a hero, drafted and obeyed the law.
=====
That photo was taken in the Kisselvind (? can't find it on a map now) forest IIRC outside Ebrach Germany, while sleeping in tents and doing what bears do in the woods.

JR

PS: Best memory from that stint was lining the edge of the tent with flippies (flip top beer bottles). Drinking beer until I needed to get up.  : Worst memory was pulling KP duty out in the woods. 

ungifted said:

Just other side view: 3 Ukranian military(!) ships invaded into Russian territorial waters near Crimea bridge (strategically important object connecting peninsula with mainland Russia), didn't answer border guard service ships, dangerously maneuvered and were seized. After that Mr Poroshenko (Ukrainian president) imposed martial law in several Ukrainian regions, two months before the election. Polls say his chances to become a president for next presidential term are nothing.  Russian propaganda calls it provocation with obvious aim.

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Russian news agencies (pravda?) are not known to be very critical of the government. When I was a kid I listened to Radio Moscow on short wave radio and they routinely told a different version of world events.

What happened in reality nobody knows, but assuming that "they recently seized a few Ukrainian ships to interrupt Ukraine's ability to trade with the larger world markets and weaken their economy in advance of their upcoming election" imo a very weak position.
No comments again about calling mr Putin "a bad boy". They are all bad boys (incl Trump) if you prefer make things simple.

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Agreed.. the current leader of Ukraine is polling at something like only 3% favorable with an election right around the corner, but "poking the bear" (picking a fight with Russia) is an extremely dangerous strategy in light of recent history (Crimea). It is plausible that he is trying to hold onto power under martial law beyond the election, but that will just give Russia another excuse to get more aggressive. 

President Trump is an ex-TV reality star, (blowhard), real estate developer.  Putin is ex-KGB and cultivates his bad boy image. I appreciate that we look at this from different world views.

$50 oil is not great for Russian economy that actually shrunk a little last year (due to falling oil prices and economic sanctions). Getting friendly with Saudi royals (OPEC) could help prop up world energy prices if the Saudis take oil supply off the market. That Saudi alignment is in flux right now with all the international criticism about Khashoggi.

The exaggerated handshake photo-op at G20 was sending a message (IMO).

JR

It's not about oil...

It's about uranium. If you look at tables for uranium dated 2010, Saudi Arabia doesn't even appear. Today, there's at least 60.000 tons of uranium core. Probably more.

Ukraine, another hotspot, has approx. 220.000 tons.

Completely dwarfed by the 1.7 million tons in Australia and Kazaksthan that has around 950.000 tons.. But that's not the point. You can't make bombs from oil. At least not practical megaton bombs.

Saudi-Arabia wanted to buy 120 nuclear plants from Westinghouse. The US govt needs to keep Israel happy, so the order was trimmed down to 6. And Saudi-Arabia needed to promise not to turn the uranium into bombs. Which they promptly did.

Another country involved, is Pakistan. When the USA doesn't want to supply nuclear tech, Pakistan will. And they have in the past.

Both Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia are harboring religious extremists. Both are getting US support.

The Kashoggi murder has set this quiet dealing on it's head.

The current crown-prince isn't an extremist. Hec, he has enough balls to take on the religious police!

My take on all of this is that his uncle is behind the Kashoggi murder, hoping the crown-prince would be blamed. And that's what's happening. That uncle is a known extremist, with affiliations to the Bin Laden family.

It also explains why a Qatar prince gave Erdogan a luxury 1 million $ plane as a gift for friendship. Erdogan needed to "discover" the murder. Erdogan was quite pleased to do so, as he needed some positive press and knew it wouldn't please those pesky Americans.

And to compare Russian military power to the US, Russia had two airplane carriers. They sold the oldest one the the Chinese, who had none. The other Russian airplane carrier, is out of commission and will be for at least a few years. So they have none in operation.

The USA has 12 airplane carriers in operation and about wo dozen mothballed...

cyrano said:

My take on all of this is

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Some of the most interesting and plausible thoughts on that topic I´ve come across!

Thank you, L'Andratté!

The Kashoggi case interested me. So I did some reading. It all fell into place when I came across the Westinghouse deal, from a number of years ago.

Meanwhile, there's the news about Hillary Clinton and the shady Uranium deal from years ago. The whistleblower's house got raided by the FBI, despite the guy having whistleblower status. It sure looks like HRC owns the FBI now. Probably the CIA too?

Again, it fits.

I noticed a new nuance in the newspaper reportage about Khasoggi... In a new article he was described as a "sometime" news reporter, rather than the original "the Saudis murdered a journalist" screed, clearly something going on there behind the scenes.

I don't embrace all the conspiracy theories, but there is a reason they call DC the swamp.    Hopefully we will learn more over time.

JR