clintrubber

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 05:50:05 AM »
How about :
<--
-->

Nice, something like this, or some kind of crosslinking symbol might be best.

As obvious to all readers of this thread, any use of 'degrees'  & '180' etc relates to shifting in time,
so misses the point of the instantaneous polarity swap which is actually happening when engaging the Button Under Discussion.

One could argue that if one fails to understand the difference between phase & polarity then it'd be best if said user refrains from operating the BUD  8)   OK?  ;)





TwentyTrees

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 06:27:42 AM »
One could argue that if one fails to understand the difference between phase & polarity then it'd be best if said user refrains from operating the BUD  8)   OK?  ;)

With this in mind, on my next preamp build I’m half tempted to use the label “Expert Mode”...  ;D

clintrubber

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 06:39:31 AM »
With this in mind, on my next preamp build I’m half tempted to use the label “Expert Mode”...  ;D

That'd be nice  ;)

Easy in software, a bit harder in hardware... I figure the closest hardware could come to this is by having a panel or small door opening up, revealing the polarity switches & impedance-selections  :P

That top door of old Tek scopes comes to mind... instead of a little manual, now some switches....

https://richardsears.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/545a-operators-booklet.jpg?w=624&h=1024


Harpo

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 09:04:33 AM »
On my last built mixing console (decades ago) I used symbols similar to attached scribble ...
http://www.hausverwaltung-heger.de/al_leck_trick/Polarity-Symbol.pdf
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.  -Douglas Adams

JohnRoberts

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 09:09:11 AM »
Nice, something like this, or some kind of crosslinking symbol might be best.

As obvious to all readers of this thread, any use of 'degrees'  & '180' etc relates to shifting in time,
so misses the point of the instantaneous polarity swap which is actually happening when engaging the Button Under Discussion.

One could argue that if one fails to understand the difference between phase & polarity then it'd be best if said user refrains from operating the BUD  8)   OK?  ;)

Over the decades I thought about this a lot. That section of console input strip was never spacious.

I even thought of a custom icon showing a normal sine wave symbol and the same sine wave flipped upside down for polarity reverse, but this ASSumes too much technical understanding from customers. If the customer does not understand you, they don't think that they are wrong, and they aren't.
==

another possible use of icons, a mic symbol and a mic symbol pointing in the opposite direction... Perhaps representing what is going on, but less well understood than the incorrect word "Phase".  ::)

JR

   
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:16:46 AM by JohnRoberts »
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

clintrubber

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 09:21:15 AM »
On my last built mixing console (decades ago) I used symbols similar to attached scribble ...
http://www.hausverwaltung-heger.de/al_leck_trick/Polarity-Symbol.pdf

Exactly that one, nice!

I realize it might solve & create a problem at the same time. I mean, it requires the casual user to know that there are two relevant lines.
But OK, as for all symbols, a certain level of knowledge is assumed.

BTW, this all makes me think of this symbol (actually a logo)

.... which is the logo of the Dutch railroads... I like it how it nicely reflects back&forth + railroad switches.

abbey road d enfer

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 11:13:30 AM »
The question is, why would someone want to change the phase to something different  than 180 degrees?
There are plug-ins (and hardware) that just do that in order to make the mics of a drum kit more coherent, as an alternative to inserting pure alignment delay.
I'm not advocating this, but it exists.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

JohnRoberts

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 11:45:44 AM »

called "vari-phase" .....   and uses the cute phi symbol for polarity...

JR

PS: I'm with Abbey and do not advocate this (adding intentional phase shift)... it was pretty well discussed when introduced.
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

moamps

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 02:28:12 PM »
called "vari-phase" .....   and uses the cute phi symbol for polarity...
It isn't phi, it is Ø, (a circle crossed by a diagonal slash). ASCII code 157.
So, what's wrong with using Ø for polarity flip function? :)

JohnRoberts

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 04:09:14 PM »
It isn't phi, it is Ø, (a circle crossed by a diagonal slash). ASCII code 157.
So, what's wrong with using Ø for polarity flip function? :)
Repeating myself for the cheap seats..... because it is not immediately obvious what it means or stands for...

When you yell across the control room to the board operator,  do you tell him to flip the "ASCII code 157" button?  This qualifies as another secret handshake the customer would have to learn to operate the gear. I spent 15 years designing gear for customers who don't like having to learn new things just to operate new gear.

This may work for some low volume manufacturer trying to find some way to be different  ::), successful high volume manufacturers try not to irritate the paying customers.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.


abbey road d enfer

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2019, 05:06:32 PM »
It isn't phi, it is Ø, (a circle crossed by a diagonal slash). ASCII code 157.

Now, what's the purpose of this special character?
ASCII definition is "Uppercase slashed zero or empty set".
Does it mean it should be used only for its mathematical purpose?

Phi is actually correct; its the cyrillic equivalent of the roman P, so adequate for Polarity as well as Phase.
AFAIK, there is not ASCII character for Phi. It seems to me acceptable to use the upper case slashed zero, which is not used for any other purpose in audio, and has gained acceptance since long.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

moamps

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 05:13:46 PM »
.... successful high volume manufacturers try not to irritate the paying customers. ...

..and they just use this "ASCII code 157" for phase reverse or polarity flip symbol.  SSL uses it, Soundcraft, Yamaha, NEVE..etc.
The problem is that some of people think (including you ?) that this is symbol for phi which is not.   

moamps

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2019, 05:23:00 PM »
.... It seems to me acceptable to use the upper case slashed zero, which is not used for any other purpose in audio, and has gained acceptance since long....

That's my point.  So why we should change it?

moamps

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2019, 05:28:49 PM »
Phi is actually correct; its the cyrillic equivalent of the roman P,
Wrong.
Phi (Φ and φ), a Greek letter, corresponding to "f" or "ph"

abbey road d enfer

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2019, 06:14:34 PM »
Wrong.
Phi (Φ and φ), a Greek letter, corresponding to "f" or "ph"
You're right, the equivalent of "P" is Pi.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

fazer

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2019, 07:31:11 PM »
This is way over thought.  I’ve been an engineer for 45 years and quickly got use to Ø,being polarity.  It was called phase on the neve 8036 I started on.  Who is even making a large format console still?  I think this topic has turned into opinion dribble.   It’s going to be labeled whatever it happens to be on the old console you are currently working on.  Which usually is like owning a sailboat.  You sail when the weather is good and you tie up and work on the boat when the wheather is bad so that you don’t sink at sea when the old ship goes back out to sail again. ;D

boji

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2019, 02:33:23 AM »
All this hullabaløø over a symbol...

I like that the zero-slash is a Danish word for 'island', or used to denote a half-diminished chord in jazz.
The wiki on the symbol is full of meanings... Someone should edit it to include audio gear use.  :)

Language is a living thing, right? In 1668, John Wilkins proposed using the inverted exclamation mark "¡" as a symbol at the end of a sentence to denote irony.  Who said the Greek alphabet gets to corner the market‽   

 






boji

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2019, 02:38:03 AM »

JohnRoberts

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2019, 09:25:39 AM »
This is way over thought.  I’ve been an engineer for 45 years and quickly got use to Ø,being polarity.  It was called phase on the neve 8036 I started on.  Who is even making a large format console still? 
Yup, I was standing on the deck when that ship sank, last century.  :o
Quote
I think this topic has turned into opinion dribble.   It’s going to be labeled whatever it happens to be on the old console you are currently working on.  Which usually is like owning a sailboat.  You sail when the weather is good and you tie up and work on the boat when the wheather is bad so that you don’t sink at sea when the old ship goes back out to sail again. ;D.
Experienced users could figure out an unlabelled button by proximity to where it is located. This is only an issue when designing product for inexperienced users, who likely don't know what polarity is. 

This is the Brewery, every thing here is an opinion dribble.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

fazer

Re: Φ--- faceplate symbol for polarity?
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2019, 05:40:40 PM »
Quote
This is the Brewery, every thing here is an opinion dribble.
.

Amen to that. :D


 

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