Neumann KH310s - add a sub?

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roger.unc

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Joined
Mar 5, 2015
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36
Location
Takoma Park, MD
Hi - I have a pair of Neumann KH310 monitors. They sound great, I'm happy. Does anyone have any advice or experience adding a sub woofer into the equation? My ultimate goal is for a faithful/unhyped response to mix on that translates to other audio setups. Since a lot of the mix battles are fought in the midrange, I'm wondering if a sub is worth it and whether ya'll use one.

Cheers,
Roger
 
I use a cheap KRK sub with them.  It helps give a little more low end,  but only turned on occasionally.  The bass can easily get too hyped and less accurate,  but it's nice for checking things towards the end..

For mixing I would also suggest a smaller second pair of speakers.  The KH310s sound really nice,  but I found for me I needed a two way or 1 way design (like the mix cubes)  to really get the midrange right.
 
For that price and monitor size I would expect no bass lack. It goes down to 34Hz at +-3dB!

What about acoustic treatment?
You should have plenty of bass but tell nothing about how your room gets along with those gigantic sound waves

Adding a sub implies a lot of variables to setup equation and if you can not trust 100% on your acoustics you would end up doing more harm than good

I work with Genelec 8050 in a great treated room without sub and there's no need lack of bass (mixing everything from acoustic wide dynamics to squashed rock and electronic music).

If you work with Neumann monitors then go for Neumann sub.
If you could afford 310's but cannot get Neumann sub invest in acoustic treatment and monitor placement. It's 90% of the way. Just my 2 cents.
 
Thank you both for the input! I think I would want to stay with a neumann sub, but that would be pricey. So maybe I will look into supplementing the GIK bass traps I have in the corners and on the walls.
 
one of our rooms  here has 310's and the Neumann sub.  If it were me I would move them elsewhere as the room they are in is too small for that set up. It sounds good though.
 
Hi Pucho - do you recall the approximate dimensions of your control room with the 310s? Just curious. What don't you like with that room set up? Thx, Rog.
 
roger.unc said:
Hi Pucho - do you recall the approximate dimensions of your control room with the 310s? Just curious. What don't you like with that room set up? Thx, Rog.

Well Roger,  It's not my control room. It's one of many rooms I have built and maintain in town.  in this case the room in question is a duel control room with 2 X control rooms sharing a space that handle two separate live rooms.  It's not a music room, it's mainly podcasting and radio and often times people wear headphones  when working in there. The gear that was specced for this room was done by another and he saw the big pocket book and made the call. I just put it all in.  The dims are small and the sub is too much for that room. It sounds fab though. If I had that setup it I would need more space.
 
hazel said:
If you work with Neumann monitors then go for Neumann sub.
If you could afford 310's but cannot get Neumann sub invest in acoustic treatment and monitor placement. It's 90% of the way. Just my 2 cents.

I think many of our control room environments may have undesirable characteristics. My sure does. I have a pair of Genelec 1032As, a pair of Mackie HR824s and a pair of KRK 10-3s(retired to the TV room for movies). I have tried a couple of subs(not Genelec and maybe that's the issue, but I doubt it) with mediocre results. I decided on a Velodyne DD15+. IMO, either the tops or subs needed DSP to "line-up" the two systems. I did not want to introduce DSP to my "audible" system. The Velodyne has multiple presets, fully adjustable LPF/HPF, LW Riley, Butterworth, multiple parametric points, high/low shelving, phase angle and delay all on board. As much as I would like to do manufacturing matching(and I'm sure there was PLENTY of R&D done for matching), the speed of sound, along with space constraints forced me to make a different choice.  My 1032As can't even keep up with this sub at 50%, and after EQ, it is virtually flat down to about 18hz. I am not affiliated with Velodyne in anyway. All I am saying is I think buying a sub capable of extended frequencies with DSP(regardless of manufacturer) is the right way to go unless one has the space and shape to physically place both systems for optimal response. I cant' change the laws of physics, and if I could, I would probably have a different job/title. I hope this helps and doesn't complicate your decision.
 
iturnknobs, thank you for that. I agree with you that the biggest problem is likely physics - i.e., non-ideal room dimensions.  I realize that if the room dimensions are going to produce peaks or nulls at the wrong frequencies, pumping in more bass isn't going to solve the problem, and may make it worse. Definitely food for thought when choosing between the KH 805 (no DSP) and the KH 750 (with DSP). Maybe DSP can help with that, at least in my listening position.

Thanks again, Roger.
 
deep bass trapping, monitor placement, measurement and repeat is waaaaaay cheaper and rewarding than trying to "solve" room issues adding another variable to equation

Oh I see, we all prefer to get more knobs to tweak
 
hazel said:
deep bass trapping, monitor placement, measurement and repeat is waaaaaay cheaper and rewarding than trying to "solve" room issues adding another variable to equation

I agree with this philosophy...  if you are suffering from a perceived lack of bass from the kh310s you may be sitting in a null spot.  Bass trapping at the front and back of your room and/or moving your monitors is prob going to get you the best results.  You can always add a sub after you’ve exhausted acoustic treatment solutions. 
 
Just to tie a bow on this thread, I got the Neumann sub and have no regrets. I've gotten used to it now, but I recall my initial subjective, non-scientific reaction was that there was greater stereo separation after adding it to the 310s--a wider and more complete image. (Could chalk that up to emotions and spending the $$$ at first, I know. I get it).

After almost a year with the sub, I can say that there weren't/aren't any problems with bass nulls in the room. I never thought the 310s on their own were particularly lacking in bass to a degree... just not low or crispy or punchy enough. After adding the sub, familiar program material sounds the "same," but I've caught a few of my own recordings where I didn't high pass some tracks and the sub made it really, really obvious that the tracks had problematic low freq content/rumble that was inaudible before.

In addition to that, the sub is most apparent when playing cinematic material (duh) - like Blade Runner 2049. The sub brings out low frequencies that were not pushed out before. Am I recording soundtracks? No. But I do listen to them and record synths and electronica. The sub has made me more comfortable playing back and catching any issues.

In sum, it ended up being a really balanced setup (prob by chance, but I'll take it). The sub kicks in well when there's some deep content, but has not been overwhelming at all. I suppose most people could do without it (high pass everything!!!!), but I feel much better being able to hear the low lows when they're there, intentionally or not. Hope this is helpful and thank you for the input!
 
Your post deserves to be a sticky on the subject of subwoofers in studio monitoring. In the context of musical creation, there is very little room for anything below 40Hz. Even in electro, sub-40's are used more as FX than a constituent of the musical content. The hearing process lacks frequential resolution below 40Hz (in jug bands, the washtub bass was used more like a LF percussion than a constituent of harmony).
I've always considered LF extension as a means to detect unwanted sounds, like mic handling, floor resonance, heating/AC... so the actual flatness of response is not a big concern for me, and anyway most of the actual rooms cannot result in flatness.
I understand that for games and film, it's different situation. A proper room should be fitted with several subs and tuned for a specific result.
Multiple subs, in combination with adequate processing, allow recreating a soundfield typical of a theatre.
 
sorry for resurrecting an old thread, I'm dealing with the same issue, having a pair of Neumann 310s and looking for a sub, and thinking of just to get a cheap KRK because I was eyeing on second hand neumann sub but the seller is super dodgy on facebook market. Initially my thoughts were the same as Abbey road d enfer where I think that I don't really need the sub cause musically it really doesn't help much and I don't really go that low, but I'm thinking of getting the cheap krk sub just to transfer the low end so it will be easier for my 310s and it wont over heat too much and just overall ease up some stress on the Neumann 310s, is that a good idea to get the cheap krk sub?
 
The big question is how you're going to cross-over between the mains and sub.
Often it is done in the sub, but how?
Optimally, the system should be tuned, and I'm not sure whatever is in the sub is capable of optimum operation.
 
sorry for resurrecting an old thread, I'm dealing with the same issue, having a pair of Neumann 310s and looking for a sub, and thinking of just to get a cheap KRK because I was eyeing on second hand neumann sub but the seller is super dodgy on facebook market. Initially my thoughts were the same as Abbey road d enfer where I think that I don't really need the sub cause musically it really doesn't help much and I don't really go that low, but I'm thinking of getting the cheap krk sub just to transfer the low end so it will be easier for my 310s and it wont over heat too much and just overall ease up some stress on the Neumann 310s, is that a good idea to get the cheap krk sub?
You’re right that subs will increase the efficiency of the mains, taking away their need to produce lows. I would set the sub crossover between 50 and 75 Hz. This will reduce the effects of localizing bass and still relieve the tops of working so hard. Furthermore, you may be able to find a location for the sub that fills in any modal dips heard at the listening caused by room modes.

As Abbey mentioned, integration is critical, but in practice not that difficult. I’ve used a few different subs with Neumann systems (Neumann, KRK, Presonus, SubPros) and they all turned out well. Ideally, you want subs with crossover , level, and phase control and delay adjustment would be great, too.
 
The big question is how you're going to cross-over between the mains and sub.
Often it is done in the sub, but how?
Optimally, the system should be tuned, and I'm not sure whatever is in the sub is capable of optimum operation.
Many users get by with the onboard subwoofer crossover controls. I personally prefer to have DSP to control crossover and delays, but I know the DSP might bother some people, especially if their speakers use non-Class D amps.

I have used MiniDSP and Danley digital speaker management boxes with great client response. I’ve also used all-analog systems to integrate subs with great client response.

The room tuning is critical, then speaker and listener placement, then speaker integrations and tuning.
 
IMO unless you know what you are doing with acoustic measurements, using a sub causes more problems than it solves. They are difficult to integrate with measurements. Without measurements chances of getting it right are near zero.
 
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