r2d2

Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410  (…. any diy ?  )

 ::)
..... Cracking D.Vader Firewall ...  II-)


iampoor1

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2019, 12:46:24 AM »
??

Are you just starting another thread complaining or asking something? I dont get it....

r2d2

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 01:02:14 PM »
??

Are you just starting another thread complaining or asking something? I dont get it....

as behringer got KT and  in  short time  done 3 clones , 
next down priced  device the would be the DN410  as low cost  mastering eq ?
and about asking  if a diy project already is somewhere
cheers
..... Cracking D.Vader Firewall ...  II-)

JohnRoberts

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2019, 02:04:26 PM »
This will be amusing and perhaps a little ironic if behringer cheaply clones all the clones...  Retooling for modern technology and applying mass production should get the cost way down. 

I suspect they will lose some (a lot) of their panache after behringer makes them inexpensively. He should be able to drop the price a bunch then still make a profit. I wonder how much market there really is for these if available in mass production quantity and lacking the scarcity factor.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

cyrano

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2019, 08:41:50 PM »
There are already a few brands "cloning" Behringer. One of them is Alto and I've been told is a budget brand for Alesis.

How low can you go?
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

r2d2

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 07:55:25 AM »
This will be amusing and perhaps a little ironic if behringer cheaply clones all the clones...  Retooling for modern technology and applying mass production should get the cost way down. 

I suspect they will lose some (a lot) of their panache after behringer makes them inexpensively. He should be able to drop the price a bunch then still make a profit. I wonder how much market there really is for these if available in mass production quantity and lacking the scarcity factor.

JR

Like all not China company that produce in China
also behringer make moneys since the beginning on the chinese workers skin paid 50 usd month
all parts , pcb , rack case , etc.. come from China producers , made by china workers paid 50 usd month , no import ,
this is the way .. ( w.a.f. )  :'(
( the chinese way - Level 42 - 80 song .....  ::)  )

some decade ago only big corporations was allowed to access to china very low cost  workers "benefit"....
1 at random yamaha....
..."coincidentally"...
..and who knows what "gifts" must have been made , for obtain the "yes"...
(..world dark sides... :'(  )
with the "globalization"
(millennium fake chance dream-premeditated to exterminate the middle class and mid-little companies )
all the corporations are still running to the China "conquest ", and some "other" are trying to ride the "wave"
...true poverty in richness  :'(

but could be the DN410 a low cost mastering eq with some "color" in-out transformer option ?
cheers
..... Cracking D.Vader Firewall ...  II-)

JohnRoberts

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 10:43:45 AM »
There are already a few brands "cloning" Behringer. One of them is Alto and I've been told is a budget brand for Alesis.

How low can you go?
I was not referring to others cloning Behringer, how many iconic SKUs do they even have to copy? While I do not pay close attention to that market the only notable original product I have seen recently is their low cost digital console (and sundry variants), that would probably be hard to copy and sell any cheaper.

I could easily imagine Behringer cloning popular old legacy studio products whose designs are now public domain, and currently sell for far more than they are worth if manufactured new from scratch.  This does not strike me as a deep well to draw water from, but may portend a less profitable future for higher priced clone makers.

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

dmp

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 11:08:35 AM »
This will be amusing and perhaps a little ironic if behringer cheaply clones all the clones...  Retooling for modern technology and applying mass production should get the cost way down. 

I suspect they will lose some (a lot) of their panache after behringer makes them inexpensively. He should be able to drop the price a bunch then still make a profit. I wonder how much market there really is for these if available in mass production quantity and lacking the scarcity factor.

JR

I think a common knowledge is spreading that a lot of the 'clones' are crap. I don't think it will affect vintage or well made boutique clones.
They may have the same logo and circuit elements, but they don't do well soundwise when they are put side by side

cyrano

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 12:27:47 PM »
I was not referring to others cloning Behringer...

I didn't say you were.

I was just considering the irony...

Now, compare the electronics market to the food market. No copyright protection in the food market, for obvious reasons. And every popular product is followed by clones almost immediately. Doesn't seem to hurt the manufacturers, on the contrary. Heinz is still there. And so is Nutella and hundreds of other brands.

In fact, I can't think of one example of a product that has been overtaken by a clone in the food market.
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

JohnRoberts

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 12:29:03 PM »
I think a common knowledge is spreading that a lot of the 'clones' are crap. I don't think it will affect vintage or well made boutique clones.
They may have the same logo and circuit elements, but they don't do well soundwise when they are put side by side
I generally avoid arguing about subjective (how things sound) and what common knowledge is... (decades ago I wrote a magazine column skewering "audio myths").

If a value manufacturer knocks off a classic legacy product there will be a strong motivation to reduce cost besides just the obvious improved manufacturing technology. It is possible to manufacture high labor content components (like transformers) for far less without compromising quality, but I do not suggest that they will.  ::) In past decades, knock-offs of category killers by value manufacturers routinely used cheaper magnetics (with noticeably less shielding for one obvious example).

One factoid to consider is many of these old technology products were made as linear as the designers could using the technology available to them at the time. Pursuit of euphonious nonlinearities that were unintended consequences from old design decisions, could be a slippery slope and difficult to replicate.  This is not just a consequence of using more expensive hand assembly techniques.

JR

PS:  If serious one could perform null testing of classic legacy designs vs modern clones to see how similar or how different they are.  The difference product could tell you what the difference is, not which one is different, but multiple tests of different platforms could probably provide general evidence to that end.
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...


dmp

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 12:41:19 PM »
PS:  If serious one could perform null testing of classic legacy designs vs modern clones to see how similar or how different they are.  The difference product could tell you what the difference is, not which one is different, but multiple tests of different platforms could probably provide general evidence to that end.

Sure - but what's the point? It takes a lot of time and energy to figure out WHY something is different. But you can go to the studio and put A against B and hear the difference in a short time over a few beers.  It's subjective mostly because a lot of people have never compared there clone to a quality one.   And I don't really care about clones anymore - either searching for a good one or debunking the quality of any of them.
In my opinion, the two likely differentiation are components - transformers, etc - (like you indicated) and attention to detail (design / calibration mistakes).

JohnRoberts

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 12:51:16 PM »
I didn't say you were.

I was just considering the irony...
When behringer's business model was based purely on being X% cheaper than everybody else, their risk was from another bottom feeder undercutting them on price. They managed their cost and distribution to thwart that risk so far. China is now getting more expensive to manufacture there so I suspect he is paying close attention to his market price.  BTW buying established brands allows him to sell similar technology with wider profit margins.
Quote
Now, compare the electronics market to the food market. No copyright protection in the food market, for obvious reasons. And every popular product is followed by clones almost immediately. Doesn't seem to hurt the manufacturers, on the contrary. Heinz is still there. And so is Nutella and hundreds of other brands.

In fact, I can't think of one example of a product that has been overtaken by a clone in the food market.
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to the business side of food markets.  In the food market they are not called clones but generics, or store brands.

Speaking of Heinz, Warren Buffet (Berkshire Hathaway) recently took a $4B paper loss on his Kraft-Heinz stock holdings. The stock price dropped 30% in 3 hours just last week.  :o  All brand names that have prices buoyed irrationally by marketing are at risk in a more aggressive environment. Look at the premium razor blade business. Most major markets sell their own generic store brands that are routinely made by the very same manufacturers. In some cases they have invested in their own sources (Walmart now owns their own milk farms to source milk cheaper).

Amazon has already turned Whole Foods (whole paycheck) profitable, and just announced their plans to launch their own supermarket chain separate from Whole Foods. This will be interesting since marketing fresh groceries is used as a way to attract store traffic, already low profit margin, and pretty labor intensive.

This is probably a bad time to be an old school food market or processed food brand manager.  Brands may survive but can change owners if they lose their profitability, or worse.

JR
 
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

JohnRoberts

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 03:58:10 PM »
Sure - but what's the point? It takes a lot of time and energy to figure out WHY something is different. But you can go to the studio and put A against B and hear the difference in a short time over a few beers.  It's subjective mostly because a lot of people have never compared there clone to a quality one.   And I don't really care about clones anymore - either searching for a good one or debunking the quality of any of them.
In my opinion, the two likely differentiation are components - transformers, etc - (like you indicated) and attention to detail (design / calibration mistakes).
I am inclined to ask what is the point of any clones other than that people still buy them?  (That is always the point).  8)

The closest I came to dabbling in clonage was when we made some vacuum tube products for Peavey's recording products division (AMR) that I was over (last century). I had access to real old school tube design engineering chops (like Jack Sondermeyer RIP), who could make a true tube compressor (using tubes to perform the variable gain) but I passed on that for the better regarded studio vibe of opto-LDR designs. At the same time we did a nice tube mic preamp. Both (VMP and VCL) are pretty well regarded products for their own merits by any listener capable of hearing "through" the Peavey heritage  ::).

I worried that the mic preamp might be too clean and had Jack add a jumper so I could remove some negative feedback to dirty it up... I was relieved that nobody noticed or ever asked for that.

That said it was always an uphill battle to be taken seriously, maybe in hindsight it would have been easier marketing them as clones, but I was too proud of them as original designs albeit using old technology.   :D (not my designs but I advised on feature set and general design direction). The gain knob on the mic preamp went up to 11, as a tribute to Spinal Tap..  8)

JR

PS: of course the  tweaks wanted to replace the transformers with Jensens, while the Richenbachs  were respectable IMO. Ironically perhaps the Jensens are known for their low distortion and purity. 
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

boji

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 06:46:26 PM »
Quote
Whole Foods (whole paycheck)

Heh, right between Bloodbath and Beyond, and Home Despot.

scott2000

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 07:00:10 PM »
I think I want to clone this guy's clean and  then maybe his jerk

220kg/485lbs Clean and Jerk @100kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-o1lUurXwc


I think I might be able to get the plates loaded up....

Vegan too..... :o


Rob Flinn

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2019, 04:02:19 PM »
This vid is quite an interesting comparison of a minimoog agasint the behringer clone.    The guy who does it knows his way round the machine & is able to mostly get the 2 units sounding remarkably similar.  I know of some quite prolific producers who have sold their real minimoogs and are now using the behringer versions.  Considering the Behringer version is 1/10th of the price of a real one it's not massively surprising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYxc8R_Qys0
regards Rob

dmp

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2019, 04:40:20 PM »
This vid is quite an interesting comparison of a minimoog agasint the behringer clone.    The guy who does it knows his way round the machine & is able to mostly get the 2 units sounding remarkably similar.  I know of some quite prolific producers who have sold their real minimoogs and are now using the behringer versions.  Considering the Behringer version is 1/10th of the price of a real one it's not massively surprising.


I've heard the Behringer Model D is pretty good.  But that video is comparing it to a reissue Moog - not a vintage one. 

Kingston

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2019, 06:30:37 PM »
I've heard the Behringer Model D is pretty good.  But that video is comparing it to a reissue Moog - not a vintage one.

Nobody gives a f**k except some collectors. There's now a minimoog for cheap. Same for those compressors. It will sell incredible amounts and the collectors will complain more. They sound the same. End game.

Those buyers will find out just how painful it is to keep that heavy rack gear around and just how cumbersome it is to use with actual analog I/O vs. that plugin you already had 10 years a go.

More stuff to fill the ocean floor.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 06:35:08 PM by Kingston »

Kingston

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 06:40:23 PM »
get used to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

And read some Iain M. Banks for a glimpse of possible futures.

rob_gould

Re: Next Behringer Mastering Eq ? Klark Teknik DN410 (…. any diy ? )
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2019, 02:38:45 AM »
This vid is quite an interesting comparison of a minimoog agasint the behringer clone.    The guy who does it knows his way round the machine & is able to mostly get the 2 units sounding remarkably similar.  I know of some quite prolific producers who have sold their real minimoogs and are now using the behringer versions.  Considering the Behringer version is 1/10th of the price of a real one it's not massively surprising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYxc8R_Qys0

Their 808 clone appears to be the same - with eyes closed one can't hear the difference between an original and their clone.  I can't see any justification for most musicians to buy an original 808 now to get 'that' sound.  There are, of course, some people for whom only an original will do, and that's OK too. 

Just sticking with Behringer synths for a minute though, it's worth mentioning their new designs.  Both the Neutron (which I own) and the Deepmind (which I don't) are great machines which are not copies of anything (yes - there's some Juno influence in the Deepmind).  When you then add the low price into the equation, they're really, really good.  I'm certainly not defending Behringer's business practices here, but the days of slagging off their crappy products and low quality is long gone it would seem.


 

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