Late 50' tube... who guess ! (The Ondioline)

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Definitely worth restoring! That’s an amazing find. One of the earliest, fully electronic instruments.

I’d read about these in Tape Op I think, in an article that documented a project by Wally De Backer (better known as Gotye) to find, restore and play one of these. Ultimately, he did a limited number of shows with what he called his “Ondioline Orchestra”. Really a cool project seen through to fruition.

In the video linked below, he talks about the project, the restoration, etc and plays a tune on it that could be straight out of a Warner Brothers cartoon from the 40s.

That’s a piece of history you’ve got there. Keep us posted on the restoration!

link to video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m18HHigbdp8&list=PLCLvIUBYsQNcllVyy-830yVEOuHxKb4VX&index=2&t=0s

Edit: The article I'd read was indeed from Tape Op. Link below:

https://tapeop.com/interviews/124/gotye/
 
Oh wow, this is the vibrant keys sound in Del Shannons "Runaway"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSWMJxbxj7c wrong again  :eek:, its a very similar sounding instrument, the Clavioline!
This wonderful instrument got a lateral vibrato keyboard in 1950s! Awesome project!
 
Hi all

Yes a nice pce of history, come after Martenot and Theremin but very interesting design for keyboard tremolo/expression as percussive pad or knee bender

I have this one since 2 or 3 years (an offer I can't refuse) but never star the restoration.
Now I start, first disassemble everything for clean and visual inspection...

As I say I'm not used to tube except basic microphone clone, I'll do this slowly to not make any bad move, I have to learn things in the mean time ...
I expect a year or so, using spare time, reverse engineer to draw schemo etc...

I find some schemo but it seem mine have way more component count, have to check better

Also I don't know what I need to change, for sure EL capacitor (there is a dozen including dual 8uf) but I read paper oil have to go too, no idea for substitution yet, but I'll find easy wits little search.

I notice one "bad" thing, most if not all solder joint look matt, I suspect global cold solder joint  :-\
What is the good practice for this, remove all and new solder ? or just flux and heat again ?
This is a 60+ years instrument  ::)

Best
Zam
 
zamproject said:
I notice one "bad" thing, most if not all solder joint look matt, I suspect global cold solder joint  :-\
What is the good practice for this, remove all and new solder ? or just flux and heat again ?
This is a 60+ years instrument  ::)

Best
Zam

I doubt that all the solder joints are cold. If the builder used non-eutectic solder (not common back then, but it was sometimes used) then the joints would be less shiny than with 63/37 eutectic. Plus they’re old and dirty and even if eutectic was used some surface oxidation is to be expected.

I’d probably get after them with a brass wire brush and lightly clean them. For really dirty joints, some contact cleaner and a toothbrush might be called for. Once cleaned up, it’ll be easier to evaluate their condition. You may need to reflow some. But personally I wouldn’t be inclined to reflow all joints unless I ran into a gremlin during testing.

 
rackmonkey said:
I doubt that all the solder joints are cold. If the builder used non-eutectic solder (not common back then, but it was sometimes used) then the joints would be less shiny than with 63/37 eutectic. Plus they’re old and dirty and even if eutectic was used some surface oxidation is to be expected.

I’d probably get after them with a brass wire brush and lightly clean them. For really dirty joints, some contact cleaner and a toothbrush might be called for. Once cleaned up, it’ll be easier to evaluate their condition. You may need to reflow some. But personally I wouldn’t be inclined to reflow all joints unless I ran into a gremlin during testing.

Hey Rackmonkey

Tks for the input ! I'll try that when I start this topic on the Ondioline restoration

Best
Zam
 
Brian Roth said:
Blog on a Ondioline restoration:

http://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80554&sid=7e9e1894b4ebaf32447139ce8b8d166c

Bri

Hello

Yes, this link is interesting !

Best
Zam
 
clintrubber said:
Very nice ! How did you run into one ?  You're in France ?

The Ondioline was  consign to me by a friend, she play "onde Martenot" profetionally.
By that time to check it, but due to heavy work needed on it, the restoration was too expensive so she decide to give it to me to restore it when possible  for me, obviously if I succeed to finish this work I'll lent it to her, so she can use it in studio or for various project (maybe not for live show...)
I don't have the story of this ondioline before that, she bought it but don't know the full context, IIRC a flea market for few bucks  ::)
(Yes I'm in France)

Best
Zam
 
zamproject said:
I don't have the story of this ondioline before that, she bought it but don't know the full context, IIRC a flea market for few bucks  ::)
(Yes I'm in France)

Best
Zam

Hi Zam,

Very nice, nothing beats the feeling that you ran into something weird/special/obscure/costing-next-to-nothing at a flea market! :)
... followed by several years of storage
... followed by pulling it out of storage and finally restoring it!

I like those weird instruments, wishing you a nice restoration project, please keep us posted here!

Bye,

  Peter
 
Hi all

Ok...after two years this Ondioline being completely parted and partially cleaned ...as the 3 part frame sleeping in storage, I start the electronic restoration  ;D

I'll start with the PSU/powerAmp section, as it's the easiear for my low knowledge about tube gear restoration.

Here come first questions

HT is given for 280V
I'll replace all old capacitor, with MKT1813 (400 and 630) and 400V (or more ?) for the 3 lytic (8+8uF)
Two of them are used in parallel, I'll probably replace with single and today standard 22u ?
Chassis mount lytic will be problematic to accommodate for same look, I think I'll let the old one unconnected and feed smaller new ones inside the frame

There is not that many carbon resistances I'll probably change them all regarding what I read about them drifting over time (I don't measure anything for the moment)
Te question is about rating, they are about 4x10mm which seem 1/2W for today manufacturing standard, Is that also true 50 yeas ago ? or that size then only handle 1/4W ?

There is one tar/paper (as all other) capacitor between main and chassis, will I change this one with Y capacitor ?
The actual main wiring is 2wire...no safety ground, common by that time but I will change that !

Last question for today, for experienced of you knowing well tube design. It's about main trafo
The Pri measure 15.4ohm
The secondary 6.3AC measure 0.05ohm (tube removed)
The secondary HT (labelled 280V after CLCRC) for the 5Y3 measure 180 and 0.13 ohm (tube removed)

Is that usual to have so low DC resistance at some ? (I cal my ohm meter to minimise contact resistance)

Best
Zam


 
zamproject said:
Te question is about rating, they are about 4x10mm which seem 1/2W for today manufacturing standard, Is that also true 50 yeas ago ? or that size then only handle 1/4W ?
The standard in these times was 1/2W.

The Pri measure 15.4ohm
The secondary 6.3AC measure 0.05ohm (tube removed)
this is normal.

The secondary HT (labelled 280V after CLCRC) for the 5Y3 measure 180 and 0.13 ohm (tube removed)
This is NOT NORMAL. Probably indicates a shorted rectifier.
 
zamproject said:
Merci Abbey

The rectifier tube is not inserted !?!

Best
Zam
Did you mean "The secondary HT (labelled 280V after CLCRC) for the 5Y3 measure 180 Volts and 0.13 ohm"?
180Vac would result in about 250Vdc, not 280.
0.13 ohm seems very low for a B+ winding.
 
Hello Abbey

abbey road d enfer said:
Did you mean "The secondary HT (labelled 280V after CLCRC) for the 5Y3 measure 180 Volts and 0.13 ohm"?
180Vac would result in about 250Vdc, not 280.
0.13 ohm seems very low for a B+ winding.

No, I mean there is two secondary going to the 5Y3
One center taped measure 180ohm (more or less 2x90) an the other measure 0.13ohm
The rectifier tube is removed, so I only monitor secondary DC resistance.

For what I read today the 0.13 ohm is probably the 5V for the 5Y3, I look at some Hammond trafo datashhet and very low DC resistance seem usual for 6.3 and 5v secondary

The label is on the shemo I have and is given after filtering
I don't know the actual voltage AC secondary nor DC post rectif/filter, I don't plug anything yet
All capacitor have been removed today, as all carbon resistance, currently shopping replacement part and
filling up some cart

Best
Zam
 
zamproject said:
Hello Abbey

No, I mean there is two secondary going to the 5Y3
One center taped measure 180ohm (more or less 2x90) an the other measure 0.13ohm
The rectifier tube is removed, so I only monitor secondary DC resistance.

For what I read today the 0.13 ohm is probably the 5V for the 5Y3, I look at some Hammond trafo datashhet and very low DC resistance seem usual for 6.3 and 5v secondary
That makes sense.
 
Hello

Long journey for this restoration... but I go step by step

I have studied a lot the actual circuit and I'm now confident to undestand most of what hapen in this crazy syth...

I have one question/concern about the percussion section (switches P, M and D on the attached schemo)
they all drive the screen of the 6BA6 output

For now I'll talk only about M selector which connect to the HT/2 OR offer the contact via the "Corde" (string)
This system is in front of the keayboard and consist of a string tightened few mm over a metal plate

My Ondioline don't have a pot to ground (to calibrate DC I guess) like attached shemo but just another 500k meaning the potential is at HT/2...140V DC on a coper string directly touched and actuated by the player.
The current is low, about 0.3 mA, but I really don't like the idea.

I'll be way more confident to substitute this system with an isolated momentary push button OR use the actual string system as remote for a relay (a fast one...)

What do you think ?

(I have other safety concern with this Ondioline...  ;D)

Best
Zam
 

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You definitely should not be able to touch a wire with 140 volts on it! That will hurt! Are you sure its not some sort of capacitor arrangement? So the wire will be insulated, but press up against the other wire to change capacitance?
 
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