Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« on: July 24, 2019, 04:59:58 AM »
Hello guys, as the title suggests I am planning to make a perfect and accurate C800G clone. I have searched the threads but did not find anything that was clear enough. Your help would be appreciated.



Gus

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2019, 05:33:34 AM »
You will have a hard time making a copy
You will need the real transformer
Body/grill/mount
Capsule Sony uses
Peltier cooler(yes this can help due to how the tube is used)
Tube diodes in the power supply
etc.

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=71484.0

Why do you want a C800G?

Khron

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2019, 06:08:42 AM »
Tube diodes will affect the sound? Really? Even "through" two cascaded RC filters (5.6k / 220uF / 8.2k / 220uF)?  :o
Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

Moby

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2019, 06:27:53 AM »
Hello guys, as the title suggests I am planning to make a perfect and accurate C800G clone. I have searched the threads but did not find anything that was clear enough. Your help would be appreciated.
Perfect clone should be the real challenge, but something close and good sounding is possible.  I think that capsule is the real pain because it's K67 design, but slightly different. Body is the issue but possible with nowadays CNC lathes.  Transformer can be Bv.08 and tubes should be carefully selected.
For microphone transformers,  BV.8,  Bv.11,  Bv.12, etc.. contact me at mobyelectronics at gmail dot com

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2019, 07:17:37 AM »
Tube diodes will affect the sound? Really? Even "through" two cascaded RC filters (5.6k / 220uF / 8.2k / 220uF)?  :o


Thank you for your response, where can I find the circuit with all its component values.

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2019, 07:20:42 AM »
Perfect clone should be the real challenge, but something close and good sounding is possible.  I think that capsule is the real pain because it's K67 design, but slightly different. Body is the issue but possible with nowadays CNC lathes.  Transformer can be Bv.08 and tubes should be carefully selected.


I have access to CNC machines and CAD softwares, so replicating the body is not an issue. My main concern is where to find the actual circuit (complete with all components values) cuz I need the PCB

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2019, 07:23:26 AM »
You will have a hard time making a copy
You will need the real transformer
Body/grill/mount
Capsule Sony uses
Peltier cooler(yes this can help due to how the tube is used)
Tube diodes in the power supply
etc.

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=71484.0

Why do you want a C800G?


Any ideas on where can I find the pcb? Or do I have to make it myself?
I don't really have a problem in making the body, mount and grill.

My main concern is the circuit and its components and their values.

And, I want a C800G cuz I love the sound of it. I tried most of other mics and none made me as happy as C800G ;D

Khron


gyraf

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2019, 07:54:55 AM »
producerxtr,

Sorry, it simply does not work like that.

Do you really imagine that Sony could charge 11K or whatever they want, for a microphone that someone like you - albeit with access to CAD/CAM - could copy based on public information?

Converting something like the C800G into a viable DIY-project would take a hell of a lot of time and effort - and would require a deep understanding of what actually goes on in there, mechanically, acoustically and electronically. And no, nobody did the work for you already - which you would have known if you searched first. Probably because it's still in production, and copying current designs is considered no-go - if you want, you just buy.

If you're interested in digging deep into this, you could try to have the japanese article on the subject (from my webpage) translated to english - maybe there's some extra info hidden in there.

But don't expect this to get anywhere without a lot of work on your behalf - and then possibly only when Sony eventually decides to discontinue..

Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
producerxtr,

Sorry, it simply does not work like that.

Do you really imagine that Sony could charge 11K or whatever they want, for a microphone that someone like you - albeit with access to CAD/CAM - could copy based on public information?

Converting something like the C800G into a viable DIY-project would take a hell of a lot of time and effort - and would require a deep understanding of what actually goes on in there, mechanically, acoustically and electronically. And no, nobody did the work for you already - which you would have known if you searched first. Probably because it's still in production, and copying current designs is considered no-go - if you want, you just buy.

If you're interested in digging deep into this, you could try to have the japanese article on the subject (from my webpage) translated to english - maybe there's some extra info hidden in there.

But don't expect this to get anywhere without a lot of work on your behalf - and then possibly only when Sony eventually decides to discontinue..

Jakob E.


Thank you for your response. But I am not looking for replies such as yours which do not add any useful info to the thread . Just because you don't know how, it doesn't mean it's not gonna work.


Moby

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2019, 11:24:02 AM »

Thank you for your response. But I am not looking for replies such as yours which do not add any useful info to the thread . Just because you don't know how, it doesn't mean it's not gonna work.
Hey, I'm not the moderator here but I must react. A lot of us are members and friends here from the day 0 and also from the previous forums. Gyraf always give great comments and yes, I agree with his comment.  But if you need some practical help, you should do something first, (for example make all mechanical parts for this mic) then when you find a problem ask for help here.  That's the way our community works.  I wish you luck in your project  :)
For microphone transformers,  BV.8,  Bv.11,  Bv.12, etc.. contact me at mobyelectronics at gmail dot com

TwentyTrees

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2019, 04:23:30 PM »
Got to agree with Moby on this. Let’s all stay civil. There’s tons of useful info in Gyraf’s reply, in particular around the ethics of cloning a current in-production design (which is why you are less likely to find clone PCBs + metalwork + BOMs lying around):

“...it's still in production, and copying current designs is considered no-go - if you want, you just buy.”

That said, there is tons of info on here about building all sorts of great mics and it may well be possible to build something that gives you what you love about the C800G using that info. It’ll take a lot of work, but that’s the fun bit!

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2019, 05:25:46 PM »
Hey, I'm not the moderator here but I must react. A lot of us are members and friends here from the day 0 and also from the previous forums. Gyraf always give great comments and yes, I agree with his comment.  But if you need some practical help, you should do something first, (for example make all mechanical parts for this mic) then when you find a problem ask for help here.  That's the way our community works.  I wish you luck in your project  :)

Hey, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, and I am sorry if it came across that way. All I was saying was that, Gyraf's comment is not helping my situation. And frankly speaking, what he said was a bit offensive to me. He had commented that "someone like you" could not simply do that. Whereas he doesn't even know me, my background nor my experience in the audio field.

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2019, 05:31:47 PM »
Got to agree with Moby on this. Let’s all stay civil. There’s tons of useful info in Gyraf’s reply, in particular around the ethics of cloning a current in-production design (which is why you are less likely to find clone PCBs + metalwork + BOMs lying around):

“...it's still in production, and copying current designs is considered no-go - if you want, you just buy.”

That said, there is tons of info on here about building all sorts of great mics and it may well be possible to build something that gives you what you love about the C800G using that info. It’ll take a lot of work, but that’s the fun bit!


Put yourself in my shoes and you will feel a bit annoyed by what Gyraf said.
He doesn't know me or my background, and he says: someone like you can't simply do it?

Isn't this whole community about finding ways to build stuff. It's called GroupDIY for that sake. Regarding the ethics part that you said, I kinda agree but there are thousands of pages here which are related to cloning gear, even ones that are still in production.

Gus

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2019, 05:40:43 PM »
Tube diodes will affect the sound? Really? Even "through" two cascaded RC filters (5.6k / 220uF / 8.2k / 220uF)?  :o

Why are you so negative when you respond to my posts?
Build one sometime. Sometimes if the microphone has low noise you can hear clicks with solid state diodes there are ways to minimize this, they are in old books.

Anyway he was asking for a clone.

back to the original poster

All you need to do is a search for "sony c800g schematic"  in google and look at images and follow links.

If the original poster wants to build one they should understand what makes the Sony circuit more different than other simple triode plate out to transformer circuit. It is simple but the posters on the web do not seem to get it or don't feel like sharing with negative responses you sometimes get.

Some of us have adjusted or built a number of microphones. Some of us know how but getting some of the parts that matter the most will cost if you can find them to by them.

The microphone has a cyropump to hold atoms more to the glass walls than in the envelope. This helps keep down noise from grid.  One site does not understand why the voltage divider resistor values are lower than in other microphones.

IMO the clones being sold are not clones unless they use the same parts.

The response to Jakob was wrong.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 05:00:11 PM by Gus »

Khron

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2019, 07:28:09 PM »
This time i wasn't necessarily "negative" as i was (highly) skeptical :)

5.6k & 220uF gives a corner frequency of 0.13Hz, and the 8.2k stage drops that to 0.09Hz.
If "diode clicks" can be heard (from the mic) through all that, which (admittedly, with ideal components) should be 80dB down at 10Hz, then how loud and audible would those be with a single, "lighter" filter?

The C12's supply doesn't use tube diodes, neither does the M251's, and you don't hear people complaining of such things.

Anyway, this is drifting quite some way away from the topic...


Why are you so negative when you respond to my posts?
Build one sometime. Sometimes if the microphone has low noise you can hear clicks with solid state diodes there are ways to minimize this, they are in old books.

Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

Gus

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 08:20:31 PM »
skeptical is good,  never trust what you read on the web without testing, measuring, checking.

Story
I replaced the power supply caps in a tube guitar amp with 1/2 the stock value 630VDC polypropylenes. I did this years ago 15 or 20 IIRC.
It caused a problem
The ESR in the plate supply was so low I believe itcaused a DC imbalance in the toroidal power supply transformer.  The transformer sounded very bad and did not wait for it to have an issue it was mechanically humming very loud due to the low ESR they measured about 0.
Best I could guess was the 1n4007 like diodes were not a good match with the surge current caused by the low ESR. I added a 1ohm series resistor before the plate supply cap and that was enough to help things out.

I build a circuit with a 6au6 tube and the Sony operation voltages it needed the super caps in the heater supply.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 08:24:04 PM by Gus »

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 10:15:19 PM »
1 First thing you need to build a perfect clone is to buy the original capsule, which IS available for sale.

2 Next, you need to make exact grille, and body shape, podsibly with the same exact materials.

3 Unless you do the first two, there is nothing you can do to the circuit to make the mic sound like C800G.

Starting the other way around (from the circuit) is like getting an amp, speaker, cables, pedals but using Les Paul instead of a Strat and trying to sound like Jimi Hendrix.

Buying a Sterling Audio ST51 and sticking original Sony capsule into it, will get you closer to C800G sound than using an original C800G with any other capsule.

Sorry, but this is not an opinion, its a fact.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 03:10:31 PM by kingkorg »

Gus

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 09:54:08 AM »
look for PN
A-8262-982-A

JessJackson

Re: Where to start for an exact accurate version of C800G
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2019, 06:31:27 PM »
built a moded quite a few..

Just use k67 Neumann in this. a lot of the sound of this mic is the long body Russian 6au6a at 5.7v and the coupling cap.



 

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