Seeking Some Advise on Consoles etc... General Discussion

hello all,

Just a little backround: I recently received a grant from the university I attend for my thesis research. My research will not require me to spend any money, so basically the money is just for me doing the research. I will be getting this money in a couple months, and am highly considering making a major studio upgrade. My first thought was to get a console. I'm currently using an Allen and Heath Saber 24x16x2, which I've modded a good bit. I like it, but we all know this isn't the best console out there. So I was looking around ebay and other used gear sites for consoles. The upward end of my budget is 10K. I would prefer to spend less than that, but if I spend that kind of money on a console, I would want it to be a considerable upgrade over my Saber. I saw some Auditronics, MCI, and Trident, that are in my budget, but am not familiar enough with these consoles to know what their sonic differenecs are. So I'm hoping this topic will spark some discussion help me make a good decision.

If anyone thinks this money could be spent on other things to have more impact, please let me know. I track to a 1" 16 track Tascam ATR and I mix to an Alesis Masterlink through an Apogee Rosetta 200. My outboard gear and mic selection are decent, but nothing to brag about. So I'm also asking where do think this money would be best spent? I'm thinking that improving my console would have the most impact, but I could be wrong. I've also been thinking that maybe a Pro Tools setup would be a good idea to make me more compatable with larger studios. But then again most bands I record love recording in the analog domain.

So let me know what you guys think and maybe we can talk about it a bit. Thanks in advance.

I think the most important question is, Would the 10,000 upgrade be reflected in your rates ? If not, I would spend a few k on a really good LDC as a present for myself (based on your gearlist) and do something else with the rest of the money. You know how much travelling you can do for 7k?


Gustav

If I decided to get this console, my rates would definitely go up. I recently bought a few mics that I haven't added to my gearlist: Beyer M88, Beyer M201, and a Beyer M160. There's a guy here in New Orleans that I rent mics from at an unbelievably cheap rate. His mic collection is SICK too. But I see your point.

If I were to spend some cash on mics, it would be probably be on some ribbons.

I think the biggest bang you'd get for the bucks would be upgrading your 1" 16-track to a 2". You could get away from using noise reduction, which will improve the sound no end, and a clean Ampex or Studer will have better-sounding electronics than the Tascam. Also, there's a crisis in tape availability; some new companies are coming online to fill the gap, and supposedly the Opelika, AL Quantegy plant will be back in business shortly, but I wouldn't be surprised if 1" tape became very rare. The market is in 1/4" and 2". Some 1/2" for mastering. But 1" may become the stepchild.

Peace,
Paul

My Tascam ATR runs at 30ips, so I don't have to use noise reduction when recording. I can't stand noise reduction... it's my enemy. But I definitely agree that an Ampex or Studer will have much better response. But a nice Studer is more than 10K. What about something like an Otari MKII or an MCI 2"? That's definitely in budget.

I think in todays market, its realistic to look for an ampex 1200 for under $5k. totally worth the investment if the heads are ok and will slaughter any studer sound wise.

how much do you have to spend? getting a new console would be the thing to do though.

dave

I would look at getting a 2inch multitrack first. You can pick them up pretty cheap if you wait and look.

Otherwise get an Alesis HD24XR. If you don't believe in digital try to rent the HD24XR for a weekend and "listen". Up until recently we used ADAT XT20s as well as a 2inch 16 track (you can't get fat like that out of a 24 2 inch).

I went with the Alesis. I also used to have a 1 inch 16 track and although I liked the sound it doesn't come close to a 2 inch machine 16 or 24 track, noise reduction or not.

The HD24XR can be gotten for 1660.00 (lowest I found when I was looking) in the U.S. Its the poor man's Radar.

With th emoney you have left over you could still get a new console or get some outboard preamps, compressors etc.

Jim

[quote author="soundguy"]I think in todays market, its realistic to look for an ampex 1200 for under $5k. totally worth the investment if the heads are ok and will slaughter any studer sound wise.

how much do you have to spend? getting a new console would be the thing to do though.

dave[/quote]

Right around 10K, but I could go a couple thousand more if needed without a problem. And I'm thinking that I could sell my console with all my patchbays and cabling for a couple thousand as well... maybe a little less. If I bought a 2", I'd probably want to hang on to the 1" for the time being.

@Bluzzi:
I'll read up on the HD24XR. Thanks.

In general, my studio is just a hobby/extra income, but at the same time I do plan to go commercial in the next couple of years. I finish my MS in Decemeber, and I guess that's the thing that's holding me up. The reason I suggested getting a console is that I think the summing amps in the Saber suck, and the more I use the EQ the more I think it's very limited, especially in the LF band. And I don't like how the tape returns pass through a gain stage (basically the preamp).

I feel a better console (or a 2") are the way to go right now. I see an Ampex for <5K is a better investment at this point than spending 2-3K on a condenser or a tube mic that won't be useful for every vocalist that comes into my studio. Wheras, a console or new recorder will be used continuously. I guess I'll just keep renting mics for the time being. I plan to look around and if anything catches my eye I'll post back here and you guys can give me skinny.

Keep it coming I like this input.

IMO if you can get a good 2" for under five or around 5K I would go for it. Tape is relativrly cheap and you can get a good 2" for not that much money. AEveryone is trrying to get rid of them which for the life of me I can't understand. I use Daw's as much as the next guy but nothing beats thats sound especcially for the rock music I record.

AS for 2" around that price sony has the APR-24 which are workhorses, Studer a-80 2" go for that in most palces as well as ampex. Otaris IMO are not worth it but it's better then nothing.
With the rest upgrade to a 24 buss console. Can get a good sony mxp3000 for around 5K or an otari console for that. Their consoles are not bad ASide from noisy pots after years of use they work great and I have yet to have one breakdown on me.

IF you was upgrading a console I would recomend this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=7320837259&rd=1

Click to expand...

i might be an old fart ..
but i would stick with the gear i had - take the cash and live off it whilst working for free at the studio of your choice - to build up the contacts and network yourself

I think 2inch is on its way out due to the high cost of tape and its eventual demise. That is the reason I gave up on it. I just couldn't afford to keep buying reels at $300.00 Canadian! Yikes!

There is a Romantic quality to using a reel to reel. I think also you tend to just "get on with it" and concentrate on the recording rather than a screen. I also had to get away from doing everything on a computer DAW as I found it didn't suit my style. So I got an HD24XR and although it lacks a few features if you are on a budget that is THE machine. Also Hard Disks are cheap and getting cheaper.

But all this is a question of taste and any tool is good in the right hands.

Jim

Ya just can't beat the sound of an AMPEX 2" 16 track.
Bass and drums at 15ips slamed hard WOW! I'd go for a MM1200.
I owned a MM1000 in the old daze WHAT A SOUND. (wish I still had it)
The MM1200 is a LOT easer to maintain than the MM1000 and the sound is about the same.
FANTASTIC!!

GARY

How did you know it was an Ampex MM1000 I used? (Unless I missed something earlier).

Yeah, my friend still has it and it sits there gathering dust. It has that "woomff" on drums. Like I said its a Romantic thing isn't it? We love those beasts but we are no longer in a position to afford the Tape and the Maintenance. Mostly the tape for me really. I could have that machine but at $300 for 20 or 30 minutes my sessions would be more than I could afford.

I also love the sound of my HD24XR. Like musical instruments there are many that are great not just one, right?

Jim

Hey Greg, if you were going modern, how about a Speck LiLO, use the rest of the money to build a large rack of G-Calrecs, SSLs and some API/JLM preamps.....

nice 16channel mixing and tracking solution...

or for the budget concious there will be a new Toft console with 80B eqs soon, should be really really affordable and leave lots of room for tape, HD recorders etc etc

I guess buying a nice old second hand desk might retain a boat load more resale value tho.

Have you seen this? Looks flexible.
http://www.tascam.com/Products/x48.html

Good luck with it, I wish my Uni gave me benjamins to blow on gear!!
-Tom

If you're going to get a multitrack unit and are not interested in aligning your tape machine every session etc... but want and incredible sound check out the RADAR system. http://www.izcorp.com

I almost bought an Ampex MM1200 and would still like to get one someday just to have. However after deep thought about it I went for the RADAR 24 and love it.

[quote author="TomWaterman"]Hey Greg, if you were going modern, how about a Speck LiLO, use the rest of the money to build a large rack of G-Calrecs, SSLs and some API/JLM preamps.....

nice 16channel mixing and tracking solution...[/quote]


Man, I've been looking at that LiLo since they first came out with pics of the prototype. That's one of the sweetest looking boards I've seen. If I had the dough, I'd buy one in a heartbeat - especially if I did anything more than two track.

But my chain of upgrades is Mics, Converters, Preamps and then replacing whatever needs replacing by the time I finish that cycle.

Daniel[/quote]

Hey,
I'll throw in my 2¢ on 2" decks. I'd avoid an A-80 if you're doing much overdubbing. They sound great, but don't have rec-erase head timing offset. It's not so bad at 30 ips, but man, at 15, punching out needs a hole like Crater Lake. There was an option for a subcard, and the manual had a great graphic of the PC board, so you could DIY it up. :wink: An A-800 or A-827 is probably a little out of range for you, but you might find a bargain. They are, IMHFO, the best 2" decks ever, either one. The Ampex guys will argue this, and they have a right to, they're great decks too, but the Studers take it in my book, unless you can find, and are willing to deal with, an ATR-124. The only Otari worth a damn is the MTR-100. They cost too much, and are overly complex, but they stole the Studer head profile and sound very good. Don't trust the auto-align further than you can throw it. The Sony APR-24 is a heck of a bargain in general. I haven't used one in anger, although the last time I was considering buying another deck it was at the top of my list for price/performance ratio. A lot of folks like the old MCI stuff, and can be had cheap at this point, but I've never been that much of a fan, and they're getting a bit long in the tooth by now.

Where's Crater Lake anywho?
Turn left at Greenland?

Personally I would go for the Console, but be very careful .. no impulse buying - Lemons all over the place! Check these out..

http://www.tmopaudio.com/Consoles.html

The Studer - nice :grin:

http://www.soundbroker.com/ :grin:

no doubt Tape is Amazing, but if you end up using a DAW, its nice to get out of the box with a console. Tom W.'s Idea is good too.