Why i don't trust / like tantalums
- Thread starter Khron
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Most of sensible audio designers avoid them. I don't know how Neve deals with them failing...?Khron said:The title's a bit of a spoiler :"Big reveal" section starts around 20:12.
https://youtu.be/9inGSp2QnfI?t=1212
RuudNL
Well-known member
Geoff Tanner (ex Neve) always says that "these tants aren't there without a reason".
He also discourages to replace them with aluminium capacitors, "because it changes the sound".
I seldom had a defective tantalum as a coupling capacitor, most of the time they fail when used over the supply rails.
He also discourages to replace them with aluminium capacitors, "because it changes the sound".
I seldom had a defective tantalum as a coupling capacitor, most of the time they fail when used over the supply rails.
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
+1RuudNL said:
![[silent:arts]](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/groupdiy/data/avatars/m/0/172.jpg?1620371656){kind=avatar}
[silent:arts]
Well-known member
Yes. And smaller. And the electrolytics will work in the circuit. And I'm sure neither Neve (or Neumann) choose them by ear.Khron said:
But if you don't want to change the sound, use the same parts (in the audio path).
... Although one must wonder how much of the "sound" is due to the aged (and potentially degraded / failing) nature of the cap. Which will likely not necessarily be just as when it was new, sooooo...
Totally agree with the "not chosen by ear" part though ;D Because duh...
Totally agree with the "not chosen by ear" part though ;D Because duh...
[silent:arts] said:
[silent:arts]
Well-known member
The benefit of tantalums is their longterm stability, aging is no a problem.Khron said:
analogguru
Well-known member
Exactly..... especially when they are used near their limits e.g. a 25V rated tantalum at a 24V power rail or a 10V tantalum with a 9V power rail. Tantalums don't forgive overvoltages - some spikes at the power rails and they are gone.RuudNL said:
ruffrecords
Well-known member
abbey road d enfer said:
Neve used them back in the 70s because they were the most compact high value capacitors available at the time. This was before aluminium electrolytics had been invented and regular types were pretty big.
Neve only used them for coupling caps and gain setting caps. They were usually sized such that their impedance was negligible compared with the load and hence they made no contribution to the Neve sound, despite what my old mate Geoff Tanner may say.
Cheers
Ian
I find it hard to believe. IMO it's just perpetuation of a myth.RuudNL said:
They do fail dramatically when exposed to overvoltage, but also they sometimes leak in a very sneaky manner, so they "work" but they also tend to displace the operating point, which changes the "sound" in a gradual manner that makes it hard to detect.
> Neve used them back in the 70s ... before aluminium electrolytics had been invented...
As I bet you know, Al electros go back before the 1930s and were VERY common in mid-1930s radio sets.
They drifted and leaked and went bad. 1950s Tants in aerospace work were much better caps. By the 1970s Tants were in wide use in audio. But Tants have problems of cost and sourcing and unforgiving overload. The Al electro cap makers saw the target and modern Al electros are very much better. (But also available cheaper than ever; buyer beware.)
As I bet you know, Al electros go back before the 1930s and were VERY common in mid-1930s radio sets.
They drifted and leaked and went bad. 1950s Tants in aerospace work were much better caps. By the 1970s Tants were in wide use in audio. But Tants have problems of cost and sourcing and unforgiving overload. The Al electro cap makers saw the target and modern Al electros are very much better. (But also available cheaper than ever; buyer beware.)
ruffrecords
Well-known member
Absolutely right but their development since then has been almost continuous. Early types were wet electrolytics, dry electrolyte types began to appear in the mid 60s but still did not have the volumetric efficiency of tantalums. Then in the 80s and 90s various new solid electrolyte were developed that significantly reduced ESR and enabled higher temperature operation.PRR said:
Cheers
Ian
ruffrecords
Well-known member
Didn't know that and I cannot find any info on dry elecs at that time. Who made them?PRR said:
[/quote]
Cheers
Ian
RuudNL
Well-known member
To be honest: I never heard much difference between capacitor types.
(Maybe I always used "the good ones"...)
(Maybe I always used "the good ones"...)
Neumann invented Ni-Cad batteries like a type of dry electret for their microphone heater voltages..
Have you positive proof that tantalums achieve better performance than Al in this circuit.EmRR said:
The output stage is really optimized for 600 ohm load. Deviation either way, lower or higher load, results in assymetrical drive.
