Gene Pink

DNA sampling in the usa
« on: November 09, 2019, 06:15:39 AM »
This is the latest post by Steve Lehto, a lawyer from Michigan.  He posts things of interest.

You gotta listen to a guy with an RE-20.  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePAWqDAT6aI

Gene




scott2000

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2019, 06:54:13 AM »

I'm going to share this with all my friends  when we hook up on FB Portal  later today......  ;D

s2udio

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2019, 07:34:49 AM »
Only a fool would think  you really have any privacy anymore, when you willingly give it away to government contractors.
 ::)
On the end of a Rural Twisted Pair.

squarewave

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2019, 09:15:16 AM »
Another issue is what those companies do with the samples (which they keep). Being the resident cynic, I cannot help but think that when they came up with genealogy DNA testing it really started out like "mmm, how can we coerce people into giving us their DNA" and someone said "we'll get them to pay us to do it!".

JohnRoberts

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2019, 09:42:55 AM »
I generally do not click on videos, but for Pink I make an exception.

I would not be surprised if dna gets harvested at birth in some future normal (that opens another can of worms, who is your daddy?).

I recall when there were arguments made against giving up fingerprints.

Just think about how many people pay to invite cameras and microphones into their personal living space?   :o

Another double edged sword of new technology, don't cut yourself.

JR 
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2019, 10:57:39 AM »
The main reason a doctor attends a birth here in Ireland  is to procure and sign off on tissue/blood samples , 
everything else a midwife is more qualified to do .
It might surprise readers to know its  been going on here exactly the same for more than 45 years , technically the government are only allowed to hold the samples a certain amount of time , but in reality once it goes in its in ,forever .

A tissue scrape is taken from the childs heel soon after birth , and bloods are taken from the placenta and umbilical area.
There is no legal basis whatsoever for the holding and processing of peoples DNA in this manner , its all down to a nod and wink style ad hoc arrangement which would originally have evolved in a time when Church,State and the bogiemen worked hand in hand to facillitate  medical and pharmacological  testing in Ireland .

Theres a few in my family felt the need to rattle the bones of our ancestors ,
 in general terms the links made with lost sides of the family has been a positive and learning experience for everybody , but the DNA testing ,which I always voiced extreme caution on ,is at last being exposed for what it is , a confidence trick .
Like you said Squares they marketed it as desirable ,set the price , and lured people into the trap .

The problem is its the  old boys a generation up from me who insisted upon going with the DNA  bullsh!t ,  by doing that potentially tieing our future offspring ,to future court cases relating to crimes that havent even been comitted yet   
it really is   'the mother of all f***ups'.

I think its time the so called 'Woke' generation , woke the f**k up , climate change even though it is real ,is only a diversion .
What were seeing here is more and more right wing  policies , all sold under a banner of liberalism and save the planet .



« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 11:11:55 AM by Tubetec »

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 05:28:41 PM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dna-collection-firm-focus-of-data-protection-inquiry-1.4077186

Looks like that company has been engaged in processing of dna without consent ,  the great irony of it is this current administration just weathered  a major scandal relating to HPV/cervical cancer where the state apparently didnt  have the capabillity to do the DNA processing ,  yet a privateer with a nod of approval  from government has been appropriating data all along behind the publics back.



 

cyrano

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 07:25:28 AM »
@Tubetec

These can't be for DNA collection. DNA isn't stable yet, directly after birth. In fact, a lot of mothers will yield two sets of DNA. And neither of those will match the adult child exactly.

There's a lot of difference between fingerprint and DNA collection. Fingerprints have NO medical use. DNA has lots of use for medical purposes, especially those that rely on having an old set to compare to the latest in case of some diseases.

DNA isn't necessarily unique either. There's the twin problem and the DNA evidence in at least one case has been reversed because another unrelated person was found to have identical DNA.

The way DNA is used for forensics has been disputed for a long time. Experts have been saying it shouldn't be the sole evidence, as it's just an indicator. That being said, hair identification is still a lot worse and that lands people in jail on a daily basis in the USA.
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 08:49:00 AM »
Maybe its the stem cells their after so Cyrano .

Below is a photo of our Taoiseach or prime minister , welcoming the directors of Genomics Medicine on the steps of Leinster house in 2018,
Turns out Genomics Medicine is a subsidiary of a company run by the Chinese government .

cyrano

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 02:00:05 PM »
There's also a central human DNA database, run by the scientific community. It's a very, very important tool for research. The database software is kinda special, since a DNA lookup isn't like finding a number in the Yellow Pages book. Ot involves one gigantic field (the actual DNA data) with just a few other ordinary  fields per line.

Microsoft is one of the names supplying the money and Apple is a minority share holder of the Malayan company that developed the database engine. The developer is a strange figure. Enough for a spicy conspiracy theory.

Still, I don't think your or my DNA is of any interest to any of them. There's no real life identities in this DNA database. I'm sure some databases on the input side will contain some identities, but these are much smaller and very fragmented. In this case, the money isn't in the identities, but in the research potential of the DNA data. And that's what everybody seems to be doing. Apple for it's skin DNA reader, fi.

I see no reason to fear large scale misuse in this case.

It is possible, however. There was a wild story a while back about the Chinese collecting DNA data from dissidents (most notably Uyghur) and targeting their relatives through it. There's no doubt the Chinese are capable of such a feat, but they're also pragmatic enough to realise the very limited use for identification.

To do this on a worldwide scale, however, seems useless. By the time the data is relevant, the subject probably has died...

Stem cells could be a target, but these weren't known when your govt started collecting samples. So, no intent.

Just data is enough of an incentive in the case of DNA. There's a lot to be learned from the data. And it's open for anyone atm, but typical paranoid nations like the Chinese would want a copy, no?

That copy would be as useless as a pirated Photoshop, I'm afraid.
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?


JohnRoberts

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 03:36:17 PM »
There's also a central human DNA database, run by the scientific community. It's a very, very important tool for research. The database software is kinda special, since a DNA lookup isn't like finding a number in the Yellow Pages book. Ot involves one gigantic field (the actual DNA data) with just a few other ordinary  fields per line.

Microsoft is one of the names supplying the money and Apple is a minority share holder of the Malayan company that developed the database engine. The developer is a strange figure. Enough for a spicy conspiracy theory.

Still, I don't think your or my DNA is of any interest to any of them. There's no real life identities in this DNA database. I'm sure some databases on the input side will contain some identities, but these are much smaller and very fragmented. In this case, the money isn't in the identities, but in the research potential of the DNA data. And that's what everybody seems to be doing. Apple for it's skin DNA reader, fi.

I see no reason to fear large scale misuse in this case.

It is possible, however. There was a wild story a while back about the Chinese collecting DNA data from dissidents (most notably Uyghur) and targeting their relatives through it.
Not sure that the Chinese need excuses to persecute the Uyghurs...  That is a lot of expense just to decide who to re-educate.  :o
Quote
There's no doubt the Chinese are capable of such a feat, but they're also pragmatic enough to realise the very limited use for identification.

To do this on a worldwide scale, however, seems useless. By the time the data is relevant, the subject probably has died...

Stem cells could be a target, but these weren't known when your govt started collecting samples. So, no intent.

Just data is enough of an incentive in the case of DNA. There's a lot to be learned from the data. And it's open for anyone atm, but typical paranoid nations like the Chinese would want a copy, no?

That copy would be as useless as a pirated Photoshop, I'm afraid.
Most interesting to me is how DNA searches using samples submitted by innocent relatives, help solve unsolved crimes by once removed or more, relatives. 

This can be good or bad, depending on your perspective.  8)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 04:02:33 PM »
Ok so here's one way the DNA data has been used to market to people I know ,
Started off with Ancestry.com , soon they had been sold the deluxe DNA testing package , now that person is going under the knife for a mysterious hand pain thats apparently linked to some genetic predisposition from one side of the family . By the time health insurance closes the loop your set up to be bled for every penny you have . I know another who was plagued for years to take the upgrade DNA package , they realise now it was just a game of hook line and sinker all along and getting involved was a mistake to begin with.

Im from basically law abiding people John , but I still take exception to how our data is being horse traded .
Ok crimes of the past are one thing ,but the data involved here could come into play at any point in an uncertain  future ,under an unknown regime with unjust laws ,  its a dangerous path were going down .



« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:01:23 PM by Tubetec »

cyrano

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #12 on: Today at 01:06:29 AM »
They should have read and understood the contract when they bought from ancestry.com...

As there's no consumer protection once you "sign" a contract, the company can do what they like.

That kind of commercial service isn't allowed in the EU. If you need to know your ancestry, you need to go to a hospital and pay. If the information is needed for medical reasons, healthcare will cover the cost. That automatically puts your data under medical secret. Even better protection than GDPR...
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #13 on: Today at 07:24:12 AM »
That kind of commercial service isn't allowed in the EU. If you need to know your ancestry, you need to go to a hospital and pay.

Interesting.  Maybe it's a country specific law because, as of this week, the UK is still in the EU and ancestry.com has been flogging the service here for years.  I'm pretty sure Tubetec is located in Ireland so it's allowed there too.

When I found out at the age of 35 (18 years ago) that I had 2 brothers and 2 sisters, I paid for a DNA test so we could figure out if we shared both parents.   However, I wasn't interested in disclosing too much info to the company myself so it was done under my older brother's name.  Some brother I turned out to be!


cyrano

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #14 on: Today at 10:07:50 AM »
Let me rephrase that...

The contract that ancestry.com proposes isn't binding in the EU. That leaves the consumer a bit on it's own.

Of course, since it is online, you can use it. It's just like online sales of medicine. Illegal. The difference is that medicine can be confiscated by customs. And that means the seller won't ship to any EU country that enforces the law. DNA services haven't shown up on customs' radar yet, as there really isn't a product to confiscate, tax or charge. It's just an email.

I believe the EU's scientific advisory board is looking into DNA services as we speak.

I had high hopes the robo calling hole would be addressed soon, but the USA blocked that in the ITU. They blame it on the internet (VOIP), but the real reason robo calls are so easy is an old protocol that dates back to the dawn of electronic phone exchanges. It allows number spoofing. Back when it was new, the protocol was only used by the big phone companies. These days, there are thousands of small operators all over the world that don't care what you do with the access they sell.

The FTC has been heavily infiltrated by industry lobbyists. And they don't want changes, as the current loophole makes them money. Recently, some robocall activity was reported by the press. Heavy fines were handed out. Telemarketeers were convicted. Etc. But these fines never get paid, as the operators aren't in the USA. And even if they were, they'd just declare bankruptcy and start over again. One case in Florida got a 120 million $ fine. The scammer stopped for less than 24 hours. He just "relocated" to another state...

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/the-fcc-has-fined-robocallers-208-million-its-collected-6790

And that's what's happening with DNA too. Legislation seems to hit those companies with lawsuits and fines, but it doesn't mean a thing to the pundits. As long as profits are high and fines are meaningless, they won't stop.

The scientific community has warned for these services. But the press keeps highlighting the possible advantages, not the fact that a lot of these services are simply scams. But even those that perform real tests, seem very sloppy at least.

That's why I think nobody in his right mind would use these DNA results to do anything meaningful. If not, anything could happen...
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #15 on: Today at 01:47:33 PM »
Let me rephrase that...

The contract that ancestry.com proposes isn't binding in the EU. That leaves the consumer a bit on it's own.

OK got it, my mistake.  Thanks for the detailed answer

boji

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #16 on: Today at 02:12:39 PM »
My health insurance rates went up after reading this thread.

Re: DNA sampling in the usa
« Reply #17 on: Today at 04:44:10 PM »
Yeah Im in Ireland ,but both people I mention live elsewhere.
Like Cy said, nothing stopping you popping  the swabs in the post, Incestry.com  dont care a damn where you are or what laws are involved .
Theres a friend of mine in the sciences , he's very concerned with the language some medical people are  using in relation to DNA. Its just not an exact enough science yet .

The  Eugenics movement and the Nazi's justifications for embeterment of the species bear a creeping resemblance to the typical justifications you hear surounding 'for money' genetic testing .
The Kennel club stands as a gigantic 'fail' monument to man kinds so called selective breeding of  dogs, the more its allowed to carry on the weaker and weaker each species has become , the other great failure of managed inbreeding has to be the  Aristocracy  ;D


 

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