Toroidal Power TX OPT Test

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DaveP

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I have tried EI type power transformers before as output transformers without much success.

Today I tried a 2x 115v by 2x18V 15VA  toroidal from RS, I was very surprised by the result.

I connected the Sig Gen at the 230V primary and the scope across the 36v, I did not expect to find it flat from 20Hz to 24kHz!

I'm not sure how to describe the Impedance, but the voltage ratio is a useful 6.4: 1 for tubes like 6J5/ 6SN7.  Say 24k:600

DaveP
 
Ain't life just full of coincidences. Earlier today I was looking at a tube headphones amp that uses an Antek AN-0150 transformer as the output transformer (230V:5V). I was about to ask the guy who built it why he chose to do it that way and how good the performance was when up pops your post.

As for the usable impedance, an important determinant of this is the primary inductance of the transformer. Your sig gen is probably a very low source impedance so there would be very little drop at 20Hz due to the primary inductance. You could try adding a 150 resistor in series with the sig gen to get a better idea of the LF response or just measure the primary inductance. There is no deliberate gap in a mains transformer so it could be quite high. I do know that Rupert Neve designed some custom toroid output transformers for a custom mixer for AIR studios back in the day so toroids as output transformers are definitely possible.

Cheers

ian
 
> try adding a 150 resistor in series

For tube-amps, 5k is more likely.

Alternatively, whatever reflects as 600r from the secondary (how you are likely to use it).
 
..when using toroids for signal transforming, it's important to remember that the very-efficient magnetic path in these also makes them very-sensitive to DC unbalances.

My transformer guy once mentioned that there is a "special grade" of dirt-cheap toroid core material that is more forgiving: this is made up of otherwize-ususable-end-of-roll steel pieces that are combined into a somewhat usable toroid core - but the fact that the core is made up of split piecest makes it less sensitive to DC (while also reducing mag path efficiency (A(L))).

/Jakob E.


^managed a triple parenthesis in post
 
Hi. What is the RS stock number for that tx ?
671-9062

So, I thought I'd measure the Inductance by checking the reactance at -6dB at various frequencies.

With no load on the secondary it measured like this:-

1kHz      17.8H

400Hz  34.5H

100Hz  33.4H

With a 620ohm load on the sec.

1kHz      2.7H

400Hz  6.8H

100Hz  19.1H

Primary DCR = 136 Ohms, Sec DCR = 7 Ohms.

I'm not sure what all  this tells us, comments welcome :)

DaveP
 
Inductance is independent of load so there must be something about your method of measuring inductance that is dependent on load.

However, the unloaded figures are reasonably good. 30H at 100Hz is an impedance of over 18K so it could work well with many single ended output stages,

Cheers

Ian
 
it might be flat but the pri ind will be too low if used for a 6SN7

measure excitation current (no load) at 20 CPS  with  and fixed voltage and we can determine the pri ind.
 
There was an article in the old Glass Audio magazine years ago in which a contributing author had (apparently) successfully used a power torroid as an audio out transformer.  I didn't build it and don't remember any particulars so can't comment further.  But it seems it is possible.

If inductance proves too low for plate or parallel feed loading, perhaps a lower ratio type would work well if driven by a cathode or white follower? 
Anyway, have fun Dave.


P.S.  Of course, there's no magnetic shielding and, unless you order a special, no electrostatic shield either but, wouldn't it be great if a cheap torroid made a great mic or line input transformer.
Also, not really your bag but, there's 1:1 and 1:2 for solid state output transformers that could be explored.


 
To put this into context, the primary inductance of the custom transformers I have made for the Mark 3 tube mixer have a 2:1 ratio and a primary inductance of 24H at 100Hz. They are flat down to 20Hz at +20dBu into 600 ohms.

Cheers

ian
 
ruffrecords said:
To put this into context, the primary inductance of the custom transformers I have made for the Mark 3 tube mixer have a 2:1 ratio and a primary inductance of 24H at 100Hz. They are flat down to 20Hz at +20dBu into 600 ohms.

Plate follower yes?  So cool, there ya go as well  :)
 
What is your source Z?

I put a switch that with 10k, 600 and 0 ohms in series with the out of  my generator, it is helpful when evaluating transformers 
 
Western Electric wound a ton of torroidal transformers that you can scavenge off old telephone poles in abandoned stadiums if you are young and crazy,

what are the numbers,  111C or was it the 117C than everybody loves to insert in the signal chain for more bass?  lots of mercury shielding in those things,  Soundguy turned me onto those, remember him?

the trick with those is winding them with exact DCR distributed around the core,  why? to keep the current balanced tight i would imagine.

Plitron makes a huge torroid output transformer that was used in a project covered in an edition of Vacuum Tube Valley.

there was a lot of hype on this thing that has since died out>



 

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here is a link to issue 19 with the KT 88 torroid output>

https://web.archive.org/web/20131122142039/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV19.pdf

and the whole enchillada right here>

https://web.archive.org/web/20130604042043/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/vtv.htm

 
To put it politely, my phone just died in the middle of a long post about impedance and L or C measurements, and I lost all that.

Basically, the short version (some may prefer, anyway), is that Z or L measurements for iron-core components, particularly power devices, vary widely with measurement method for may reasons. After much frustrating comparison, I engaged a transformer mfr. in discussion about this. Basically, measurement at conditions far from actual operating conditions will produce different measurements than expected. Recommended an incremental inductance analyzer like General Radio used to make. It typically is used with a power source (tube amp in the original form). I had suspected excitation/magnetization current cannot be provided by a small-signal L or LC 'meter' or Z analyzer.

Using a variety of such instruments, I too observed that iron core inductance increased at a fixed frequency between low and highest-available signal level (usually no more than 10 Vrms). I also saw variation with frequency, vaguely recalling higher Z at lower f. These observations were with ungapped transformers (power and output, EI and toroid core).

Knowing I only achieve a relative measurement, I use winding inductance measurements with a grain of salt. I kind of trust leakage inductance measurements for each winding because it's done by shorting a transformer winding and it's theoretically independent of the core. Anyway, since each shorted winding in a multi-winding component produces a different LL, it's relative info only. If you have a transformer with a persistent short (not high-voltage dependent), a full or partial winding short will cause inductance measurements closer to leakage inductance than 'actual' (permeability-dependent).

I compare pri/sec L at a single frequency due to proportionality to Z ratio, then square root of that as a first dart throw to determine turns ratio and identify windings (unknown components with no or insufficient data). I sometimes then apply voltage with a Variac/Powerstat (VAT) for another dart throw at turns ratio. They are usually far enough different to be disappointing. Comparing those to small-signal Z/L instruments show other significant differences. It at least helps me identify windings and how balanced dual primaries are regarding L, R and unloaded transformed voltage (turns) ratio.

I have also once or twice set up a 500 VA variable (amplitude & freq) AC power source to compare primary winding current as a wishful indicator of winding impedance (resistance+reactance...R+XL)...also frustratingly 'off' from other collected superstitious experimental measurements...probably includes current due to impedance and magnetizing current...all of which led to pinging a transformer engineer who hasn't changed his e-mail address or ignored me yet.

I haven't yet bothered to add series resistances, or attempt DC-biased L measurements...and won't, since my 'dry' AC-only data has been minimally useful.

I am satisfied with what little it does to identify/confirm a few things.

I guess not only frustrating but humbling and educational...showing me to not blindly take measurements as gospel.

Measuring old electrolytics with 3 different types of instruments is another 'educational' pursuit. Trust nothing until you can confirm.
 

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