Whoops

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2020, 12:19:03 AM »
some people have different hearing than others.

I agree,but hearing is not ruled by what the ears capture.
The biggest difference between people it's the Brain itself. It's also the brain that listens and interprets a sound.

The Brain can be influenced by a lot of different things, not only senses like the ears, and it's quite complex.
So yes someone that likes silver gloss, might prefer the sound of a silver component or piece of equipment.

But I was not even arguing that I was giving my honest knowledge based on my experience with the 2N3055,
I'm totally open to other opinions and people with other experiences.

So in your case CJ, is there any specific type of brand of 2N3055 that you prefer and why?
Or did you encounter any problems in replacing an old 2N3055 with a new production one?



synthiaks

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2020, 01:49:19 AM »




Whoops: thank you for giving such a extensive answer to my lazy question!

The biggest difference between people it's the Brain itself. It's also the brain that listens and interprets a sound.

Working with sound post for Cinema for the last 15 years I can say that's so true. What someone hear can be impossible to hear or even understand for someone else. This is also why I'm a bit sceptical towards the discussion how capacitors "sound" for example.

Then not even considering the fact that many people probably dont even hear that well. Even among the audio pros the elefant in the room is that, experience gained with age, will be hearing lost.
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:54:08 AM by synthiaks »
"ex observer in silence"

JohnRoberts

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 12:47:44 PM »
There are clearly measurable differences between people's hearing, but +1 to Whoop's observation that there are larger differences in human's post processing (meat computer).

I won't repeat all of my goto anecdotes but one perhaps germane one was the year Peavey introduced their most successful solid state tube mimic (transtube) at the NAMM show with single blind A/B testing in the booth. After several days of random A/B trial results, only 2 or 3 individuals could reliably tell which was glass and which was silicon. This suggests that critical listening is learned or based on life experience. These individuals were experienced guitarists who knew what to listen for (the design engineer could tell them apart also). 

Since human perception is generally flooded with too much information, different people selectively discard different excess information. I suspect there are different areas of specialization. An orchestral conductor will have developed different sonic focus, than guitar players, etc.  I recall working on a SMPTE to midi synchronizer back in the 80s and a bass player who worked with us was driven to distraction by minuscule timing errors in the midi clock driving a drum machine. He had a highly evolved sense of timing, a useful skill for bass players.

I personally find listening tests pretty well worthless for circuit design other than to confirm there are no gross errors.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

CJ

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 03:05:31 AM »
Certain mastering engineers seem to be able to rack up impressive stats on album sales, time after time.

Perhaps they have a gift for music.

If you try out 200 guitars they will all sound a bit different. What do you right down on the spec sheet as to why they sound different?

After a guitar amp circuit is built, the tweaking stage is next. This is done by trial and error. Different caps, resistors, tubes, transformers, speakers, cabinets. What sells and what does not sell is going to depend on the person doing the tweaking.  Will taking a scope shot or measuring distortion at different frequencies tell you the answer?  Transient response using a square  wave?  No.It is the designer who makes the difference. Not the specs or the circuit.  Why do you think James Brown suffered Eddie Van Halen?  :D
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

synthiaks

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2020, 04:50:10 AM »
Certain mastering engineers seem to be able to rack up impressive stats on album sales, time after time.

Perhaps they have a gift for music.

If they are over 45 They probably have an Assistant Making sure everything is OK over 14K :)

I don't argue against designer Tweeking I'm just sceptical towards the fellows that have "listening sessions" with capacitors and pay 300$ for audio cables. ::)

Just swapping an on-amp in a "tweaked" circuit and then hearing things described like " transparent" or "air" makes my alarm go off.

But hey, I'm not a audio electronics professional, I work with cinema sound and have 85dB SPL on my ears day in and out so I probably can't hear "transparent" anymore
"ex observer in silence"

JohnRoberts

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 11:31:39 AM »
Certain mastering engineers seem to be able to rack up impressive stats on album sales, time after time.

Perhaps they have a gift for music.
or a strong awareness of consumer taste and trends.
Quote

If you try out 200 guitars they will all sound a bit different. What do you right down on the spec sheet as to why they sound different?
write? Guitar players don't read spec sheets (at least the vast majority do not), so it doesn't matter.  Then there are a long list of tangible intangibles that affect how a guitar plays and feels only indirectly affecting the sound.
Quote
After a guitar amp circuit is built, the tweaking stage is next. This is done by trial and error. Different caps, resistors, tubes, transformers, speakers, cabinets.
I don't think it is that much left to chance at least not with the professional amp designers I have known. There is quite a lot of iterative tweaking but not totally random. I recall how painful it was when my lab was upstairs directly above the guitar amp engineers and there was a bass amp engineer who couldn't play a lick. :o

Mercifully after several months he was hired away by another company. His boss gave him a glowing reference helping him out the door.  8)
Quote
What sells and what does not sell is going to depend on the person doing the tweaking.
Results matter independently of how you arrive there. A design engineer does not randomly create a string of hits by chance, maybe once, but not over and over. I suspect there are some highly valued exotic amps that may be one hit wonders, where amp designers (cough) mostly tweaked other peoples designs and had some success.
Quote
Will taking a scope shot or measuring distortion at different frequencies tell you the answer?  Transient response using a square  wave? 
it can if you know what you are looking for... The repeat success guitar amp engineers I know were also EEs so no slouches about interpreting electrical measurements.
Quote
No.It is the designer who makes the difference. Not the specs or the circuit.  Why do you think James Brown suffered Eddie Van Halen?  :D
It was his job?  Since Jame Brown's office was literally a few yards from mine during this period I know a little about it, second hand from chewing the fat with James. He made multiple visits out to spend time with Eddie at his CA (home)studio, carrying prototypes in their various stages of development for Eddie to kick the tires on and critique. While Eddie's largest contribution was his name value he had a major say (and veto power) over all aspects of the amp. Eddie could not describe in technical terms what he wanted, so James translated his requests into a physical embodiment.  Without sharing any trade secrets Eddie's preferences ranged from choice of cabinet wood, to cabinet construction (which matters), gain staging, and more.  By this point James was already an experienced amp designer, but the 5150 was clearly Eddies vision of Eddie's ideal amp, translated to reality and brought to life by James.

Coincidentally James is now working for Fender on a new EVH project. What goes around comes around but apparently there is still some life in the EVH brand.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

CJ

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 07:46:17 PM »
the automobile came to life in 1886.

the integrated circuit in 1949.

the internet 1990.

 where do you think we will be in 1000 years?

in other words, right now, we don't know crap about anything.

to think otherwise would seem to indicate a lack of humility.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

Whoops

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 08:55:49 PM »
I'm totally open to other opinions and people with other experiences.

So in your case CJ, is there any specific type of brand of 2N3055 that you prefer and why?
Or did you encounter any problems in replacing an old 2N3055 with a new production one?

JohnRoberts

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 09:59:37 AM »
the automobile came to life in 1886.
They only started talking to us recently (ignoring Kitt from Knight rider).
Quote
the integrated circuit in 1949.
The modern monolithic IC was perhaps a decade later...while there were earlier multi-device integrations, a precursor to the later technology.
Quote
the internet 1990.
I was using a modem on my computer to submit my magazine columns in the early 80s... Not exactly connecting to a world wide web, but days faster than using snail mail.
Quote
where do you think we will be in 1000 years?
dead and buried
Quote
in other words, right now, we don't know crap about anything.
The human race has accumulated a massive body of knowledge (just ask Alexa), while we rarely behave like it.   ::)
Quote
to think otherwise would seem to indicate a lack of humility.
Mea culpa? But I am regrettably still getting all too many reminders of my ignorance. I hoped by now it might slow down a little. I suspect I may be in Kelly Bundy mode where learning new facts, erases old knowledge.  8)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

CJ

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2020, 07:27:13 PM »
these transistors right here are pulls from Marantz receivers.

i do not know who makes them. 

but they sound good. especially the ones with the aluminum domes.  just kidding. i can not quantify that with E=IR or F=ma or any other equations.

music is spiritual. electronics is material.   where they mix is where the fun is.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html


Whoops

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2020, 07:43:14 PM »
these transistors right here are pulls from Marantz receivers.

Why do you pull them from Marantz receivers?
Is there anything in the circuit that makes them fail or are not sturdy enough?

Why do you replace them with MJ21194 and not with another 2N3055?

Thanks CJ

CJ

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2020, 03:40:15 PM »
21194 is good to 250 volts so you have a bullet proof receiver since rails are 53 volts,



not sure why they fail, age, or maybe spikes from the speakers, they did use flyback diodes on later models.

those transistors are from 1975, most of them are still good, might have some leakage, we get a few blown ones from time to time.

music electronics blends art and science. you can be really good at the science part, but if not good at the art part, you will not put down a legacy.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

Gene Pink

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2020, 05:31:54 PM »
>  since rails are 53 volts,

>  not sure why they fail,

If you mean rails are +53 and -53, meaning 106V between rails, check the sec sheet out: 

https://components101.com/sites/default/files/component_datasheet/2N3055%20Transistor%20Datasheet.PDF

Or, as usual, am  I missing something?

Gene


Whoops

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2020, 06:00:43 PM »
those transistors are from 1975, most of them are still good, might have some leakage, we get a few blown ones from time to time.

I might be missing something also
So if most 2N3055 transistors in those Marantz receivers are still good, and if blown ones are the rare exception, and if in your opinion the 21194 sound harsher,
why are you replacing the 2N3055 for 21194 at all?

JohnRoberts

Re: TO-3P-3 replacements for 2n3055
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2020, 01:35:07 PM »
>  since rails are 53 volts,

>  not sure why they fail,

If you mean rails are +53 and -53, meaning 106V between rails, check the sec sheet out: 

https://components101.com/sites/default/files/component_datasheet/2N3055%20Transistor%20Datasheet.PDF

Or, as usual, am  I missing something?

Gene
No you are correct... 3055 is generally hard to kill, but +/- 50V rails are a bit much for 60V devices.  The devices "should" be completely cut off when seeing >60V CE, but any reactive load, or even too much class A bias, could stress it outside its operational range.

JR
JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.


 

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