john12ax7

Re: covid politics
« Reply #980 on: October 08, 2020, 06:55:20 PM »
Think about how there is absolutely no mechanism in biology how this would actually work.

Do you have enough training and experience to draw this conclusion? Even so, most mechanisms are unknown,  until they aren't. Were gravity,  electricity and magnetism BS before their mechanisms were understood?

Let's not derail this thread further, I have no hope of actually convincing you, if you want to believe.

I rely on data and personal experience.  I posted an article that linked to actual data and you respond with....Slate, It would seem you are the one relying on beliefs.

There are major medical and research centers that are starting to adopt integrative medicine. They wouldn't do this without at least some evidence.

Btw even the Slate article states "Some aspects of Chinese medicine are undeniably effective "

I do agree about getting back on topic. Sorry everyone for the tangential derail.


Gold

Re: covid politics
« Reply #981 on: October 08, 2020, 07:00:37 PM »
Trump's had no taste since long before he was riddled with corona so, to be expected really.

;)

His buildings are crap too. I’ve come to believe that any residential building with a fancy lobby means the apartments suck. His buildings start falling down the minute they are put up. All sizzle no steak.

john12ax7

Re: covid politics
« Reply #982 on: October 08, 2020, 07:09:48 PM »
I’ve come to believe that any residential building with a fancy lobby means the apartments suck.

Definitely true for a lot of places in LA.

Re: covid politics
« Reply #983 on: October 08, 2020, 07:43:52 PM »
His buildings are crap too. I’ve come to believe that any residential building with a fancy lobby means the apartments suck. His buildings start falling down the minute they are put up. All sizzle no steak.

Haha, yep :D   

"Fur coat and no knickers" is how my mom would have put it :)
Jeffrey Toobin: "This is the most embarrassing week ever."

Rudy Giuliani: "Hold my pants..."

scott2000

Re: covid politics
« Reply #984 on: October 08, 2020, 11:59:23 PM »
And by the way, the ‘miracles coming down from God’ emergency antibody treatment that Trump received last week was developed with the use of a cell line originally derived from abortion tissue.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/10/07/1009664/trumps-antibody-treatment-was-tested-using-cells-from-an-abortion/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTWCQTkv0VA&feature=emb_logo

Gold

Re: covid politics
« Reply #985 on: October 09, 2020, 12:09:36 AM »
Haha, yep :D   

"Fur coat and no knickers" is how my mom would have put it :)

Sounds right up his alley.

living sounds

Re: covid politics
« Reply #986 on: October 09, 2020, 06:40:18 AM »
Do you have enough training and experience to draw this conclusion?

I have some skeptical training, which means to learn how to evaluate evidence and expertise of others. You'll be hard pressed to find actual experts in the relevant fields and/or quality studies that give any credence to notions like acupuncture or homeopathy.

Quote
Even so, most mechanisms are unknown,  until they aren't. Were gravity,  electricity and magnetism BS before their mechanisms were understood?


That logical fallacy is called an "argument from ignorance". It also falls into the "god of the gaps" cluster.

The logic behind it can be subsumed as: "We don't know, therefore magic."

But we do know. And there is no mechanism at all for these things to work. And all the quality scientific studies done show them not to work. On top of it, whe understand the psychology behind believe in treatments based on magical thinking.

So it really should be case closed.

That these treaments are adopted in some places has nothing to do with efficacy and more with their ability to generate profit and with the patients psychological needs.

None of this means that "western" medicine as it is practised today couldn't and shouldn't be improved. But resorting to magic is not improving anything.

john12ax7

Re: covid politics
« Reply #987 on: October 09, 2020, 03:38:12 PM »
You'll be hard pressed to find actual experts in the relevant fields and/or quality studies that give any credence to notions like acupuncture or homeopathy.

You can find them at places like elite research universities. I even know some personally (in other alternative fields). So maybe do a little more digging.

That logical fallacy is called an "argument from ignorance".

Nope.  Something can be shown to exist without knowing its mechanism for existence. You are conflating the two.

iturnknobs

Re: covid politics
« Reply #988 on: October 13, 2020, 07:42:51 AM »
Quote from: itirnknobslink=topic=74494.msg966185#msg966185 date=1601645605
Prepare for an exponential increase in stupidity if Trump shakes this off with no issues. Regardless of my wishes or not, most know what I am saying "holds some water".

It's like I'm a crystal ball...

"I feel so powerful, I'll walk into that audience. I'll walk in there, I'll kiss everyone in that audience," Trump said in Sanford, Florida, showing his illness did not teach him to respect his own government's pandemic guidelines. "I'll kiss the guys and the beautiful women and the -- everybody. I'll just give everybody a big, fat kiss.
-DJT

I literally wish this virus on all Trump supporters. They have publicly endangered everyone around them and outwardly asked for it, even before I openly wished it. Republican? May your children suffer.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 07:54:32 AM by iturnknobs »
Election 2020.  For the people, not the money.

crazydoc

Re: covid politics
« Reply #989 on: October 14, 2020, 01:43:57 AM »
Osteopaths have the same training as allopathic (MD) physicians, and maybe a little extra as far as cracking backs and the like. I've worked with a number of osteopaths, and they hold their own with MD's - both the good, the bad and the ugly.

Dr. Conley's comments have nothing to do with his training, but rather from being between a rock and a hard place (not that that excuses him).
A succinct explanation of USA osteopathic training:
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/938918?nlid=137807_426&src=WNL_mdplsfeat_201013_mscpedit_fmed&uac=37266AR&spon=34&impID=2618458&faf=1#vp_1
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.


living sounds

Re: covid politics
« Reply #990 on: October 14, 2020, 10:55:28 AM »

crazydoc

Re: covid politics
« Reply #991 on: October 14, 2020, 11:55:07 AM »
I thought I had posted this, too:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/osteopathic-medicine-what-is-it/
Yes, you had - good article. I just thought I'd link another.  :)
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

iturnknobs

Election 2020.  For the people, not the money.

JohnRoberts

Re: covid politics
« Reply #993 on: October 20, 2020, 07:53:33 PM »
It is more than a little disappointing that more than one governor is casting doubt about COVID vaccines.

The low information public is already distrustful about vaccines and don't need high profile politicians discouraging their use even further.

Luckily these vaccines will probably be in short supply at first so the ignorant doubters can just take a pass, leaving more for us during the early rounds, but I hope they don't kill any friends or aged relatives by not protecting themselves and others.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

hodad

Re: covid politics
« Reply #994 on: October 21, 2020, 12:33:01 AM »
It is more than a little disappointing that more than one governor is casting doubt about COVID vaccines.


More than one governor has cast doubt on Trump's assertion that a vaccine can be brought safely to market by election day.  But so have a lot of sane and intelligent people.  Trump is playing politics and offering false hope--he should be called out. 

There are very real concerns that need to be addressed regarding the virus.  Obviously, production and distribution will be challenging.  But it's worth noting that most if not all of the vaccine frontrunners have to be stored at extremely low temperatures.  This has the potential to be problematic in rural and medically underserved areas.  I'm a 15 minute drive from 5 hospitals and the CDC, so I'm not worried.  But things might be a little different down in Hickory, Mississippi.

living sounds

Re: covid politics
« Reply #995 on: October 21, 2020, 08:14:30 AM »
Vaccines also need to be manufactured first. And administered. And then they need to provide immunity for longer than a Covid-19 infection often seems to provide (I've read about antibodies waning 3-4 months after successfully battling the disease) and they need to provide immunity against the strains of virus actually circulating.

It looks like a tall order, and it might take years for humanity to get rid of this virus...

iturnknobs

Re: covid politics
« Reply #996 on: October 21, 2020, 09:47:20 AM »
It is more than a little disappointing that more than one governor is casting doubt about COVID vaccines...    ...so the ignorant doubters can just take a pass...

Just like you couldn't be paid to follow Twitter, I couldn't be paid to trust Trump on a vaccine... because I follow his tweets and lies... over 20,000 false public statements so far in this administration. Educated doubters, I think you meant.
Election 2020.  For the people, not the money.

crazydoc

Re: covid politics
« Reply #997 on: October 21, 2020, 09:58:22 AM »
How the world’s greatest public health organization was brought to its knees by a virus, the president and the capitulation of its own leaders, causing damage that could last much longer than the coronavirus.

https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-the-fall-of-the-cdc
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

JohnRoberts

Re: covid politics
« Reply #998 on: October 21, 2020, 10:01:05 AM »
More than one governor has cast doubt on Trump's assertion that a vaccine can be brought safely to market by election day.  But so have a lot of sane and intelligent people.  Trump is playing politics and offering false hope--he should be called out. 

There are very real concerns that need to be addressed regarding the virus.  Obviously, production and distribution will be challenging.  But it's worth noting that most if not all of the vaccine frontrunners have to be stored at extremely low temperatures.  This has the potential to be problematic in rural and medically underserved areas.  I'm a 15 minute drive from 5 hospitals and the CDC, so I'm not worried.  But things might be a little different down in Hickory, Mississippi.

I consider false hope (aka optimism) far less harmful than casting shade on vaccines when they finally become available. I have worked with inspirational (to some) business leaders and they commonly make unrealistic requests. If they ask for 10 they might get 6, while if they ask for 5 they are more likely to only get 4.

It typically takes years to develop successful vaccines and the progress made with western COVID vaccines is pretty remarkable for speed. Less impressive are vaccine efforts in Russia and China where they skipped or shortened the human safety trials. The western vaccines are under a microscope for safety testing.

=====

I am happy that you live within 15 minutes of 3 hospitals, I hope you don't need them.

I am unsure about all your personal attention (trolling?) but I live about 25 minutes from the nearest cluster of 3+ hospitals (Meridian). For almost 15 years I made that daily commute to Peavey headquarters. I don't expect to need 3 hospitals or even one hospital to get a vaccination. My local clinic is walking distance. More likely mass inoculations will be done in a Walmart parking lot or something like that.       

Yes I have heard the reports about some vaccines requiring serious cold storage. This is actually already the case for some medicines (perhaps same technology) as my neighbor the druggist has mentioned before. Some vaccines are reporting a stronger antibody response than natural recovery from COVID, especially in older patients (a good thing).  I remain apprehensive about the coronavirus aspect of COVID, we may end up with annual vaccines just like the flu, with similar efficacy (i.e. so-so).

The good news about being old is that time goes by much faster... the bad news is being old.  But this too will pass. 8)

JR

PS: If you doubt the vaccine because of who is POTUS (which isn't even rational) try not to kill your older relatives or friends by boycotting immunity. I suspect after a couple weeks from now, the vaccines will be considered safe again.  ::)
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

hodad

Re: covid politics
« Reply #999 on: October 21, 2020, 10:28:21 AM »

PS: If you doubt the vaccine because of who is POTUS (which isn't even rational) try not to kill your older relatives or friends by boycotting immunity. I suspect after a couple weeks from now, the vaccines will be considered safe again.  ::)

It's not who is POTUS, it's who POTUS is.  I don't know if you've noticed, but he lies a lot.  Many of his underlings have wound up in jail.  He is not to be trusted. 
Why would I consider him more believable on vaccine delivery (when his claims obviously are politically motivated) when he lies about nearly everything nearly constantly? 
Do you really define "optimism" as believing the unfounded claims of an inveterate liar? 


 

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