[guavatone]

I am just delving into reading about DIY ventilators. A friend posted on Facebook about the need to 3D print a Y-valve for ventilators.


So first, does anyone near North Jersey have a 3D printer that would like to get involved?

The need face masks and other PPE to start. I’m not entirely sure about the efficacy of DIY ventilators but looks promising

This seems the the Goto place for designs:

Open Source COVID19 Medical Supplies Public Group | Facebook

[fazer]

I thought ventilators required a breathing tube and your completely Knocked out for the machine to work correctly

[cyrano]

Respirators need to be handled by trained nurses.

Getting lots of machines won't do much good if you can't find enough people to handle them.

Meanwhile, transmission by animals is being largely ignored. There's confirmed cases of cats and dogs that were infected. It seems everybody's afraid of considering birds.

In the Netherlands, the virus has been found in sewage. I can't yet grasp the consequences. Need to think about it.

[ruairioflaherty]

Respirators need to be handled by trained nurses.

Getting lots of machines won't do much good if you can't find enough people to handle them.

Meanwhile, transmission by animals is being largely ignored. There's confirmed cases of cats and dogs that were infected. It seems everybody's afraid of considering birds.

In the Netherlands, the virus has been found in sewage. I can't yet grasp the consequences. Need to think about it.

Can we start with citations from real experts?

[guavatone]

Well it’s happening weather you like it or not. Montclair State U has 46 3D printers and making PPE and respirator valves, probably Y or double Y valves, for 2 hospitals nearby. MIT and other schools are designing respirators that cab made with $300-400 In ‘easy to find’ parts.

I’ll know more when I talk to someone in FDA medical device division.

http://news.mit.edu/2020/ventilator-covid-deployment-open-source-low-cost-0326

It’s not rocket science.

[Whoops]

Respirators need to be handled by trained nurses.

In a normal situation, Yes, Definitely

In an extreme situation, a normal intelligent person can learn how to use a ventilator, it will not take a degree on nursing but just have the basic training and learning to deal with the ventilator.

I don't know how to design a mixing console, I don't even know how to design a simple electronics circuit, but I was able to build 2 (working at first time) Neve Preamps without knowing anything about electronics or even knowing how to use the multimeter.
I just followed rigorously the build guidelines.
On a third build I had to troubleshoot, so I learned the basics of the multimeter just enough to troubleshoot and fix the unit.

What I want to say is that, learning nursing or medical assistance as a whole is a big thing, but having a procedures guideline of a focused subject is viable for people to learn even without previous nursing knowledge.

Drastic times make drastic measures

[cyrano]

In a normal situation, Yes, Definitely

In an extreme situation, a normal intelligent person can learn how to use a ventilator, it will not take a degree on nursing but just have the basic training and learning to deal with the ventilator.

That's how it looks until you analyse the situation thoroughly.

It's not the application of the respirator itself, it's also patient follow-up. Even a regular nurse can't do that. It takes literally years of experience to know when you need to call the specialised doctor. If you don't have that experience, you'll end up wasting extremely valuable time and probably even killing patients.

The people who need these respirators usually have other ailments, also complicating treatment.

And that's based on an analysis by a medical team, not my opinion. One of them told me "the last thing we need in our hospitals is a bunch of amateurs running around trying to help".

It's popping up everywhere. Our local baker told me he already declined a volunteer, willing to "regulate traffic" (ie people waiting outside the bakery).

I'm having trouble keeping up with mail, cause important mails are getting drowned by well-meaning Corona info mails from everybody and their dog. Links to servers that can't handle the load, or articles not published yet don't add anything positive. That's the same effect. The most disgusting spam came from Hayes consulting, trying to headhunt me, as the Corona crisis might just make me want to change jobs...

It even seems our govt is doing better than all the rest in this case. Just 1 info site, advertised on Google.be. Now if only our journalists were able to read. The errors in the press are appalling.

[Whoops]

It's not the application of the respirator itself, it's also patient follow-up. Even a regular nurse can't do that. It takes literally years of experience to know when you need to call the specialised doctor. If you don't have that experience, you'll end up wasting extremely valuable time and probably even killing patients.

The people who need these respirators usually have other ailments, also complicating treatment.

And that's based on an analysis by a medical team, not my opinion. One of them told me "the last thing we need in our hospitals is a bunch of amateurs running around trying to help".

I understand and agree in general terms but totally disagree in an extreme situation.
Veterinarians and dental doctors are already being called to help in Hospitals, also people that have any type of nursing training.
This is already happening.
They're not amateurs but are people that don't have any specific training for Intensive Care.


"It takes literally years of experience to know when you need to call the specialised doctor"

When you have 800/900 people dying a day, everyday, like in Italy and Spain with the Hospitals completely collapsed that sentence has no mean.

[JohnRoberts]

On the subject of DIY, I modified one of my two hepa air filters with a small (7W) UVc lamp mounted inside...

I removed the actual particulate filter so basically sucks in room air, blasts it with UVc  then exhausts it.

JR

[cyrano]

When you have 800/900 people dying a day, everyday, like in Italy and Spain with the Hospitals completely collapsed that sentence has no mean.

The first thing we all have to do, is not make it worse.

And that's a hard one to answer.

But now the market is being flooded with untested, perhaps unreliable and unsuitable items. Belgium had to refuse a shipment of a few million masks because they were unsanitary. Several cures are being proposed that would be refused in normal times. Speculators at work.

I feel it would be wrong to introduce untested, below standard items. It might save a few lives in short term, but it would cloud the data, leading to more loss of life later on.

That's the hardest part. By the time we've learned the basics about this virus, it will be over. We'll be a little better prepared for the next one, but that will be different and nobody knows how different. And virii like this one seem to come along once every century, give or take a decade.

[JohnRoberts]

The first thing we all have to do, is not make it worse.

And that's a hard one to answer.

But now the market is being flooded with untested, perhaps unreliable and unsuitable items. Belgium had to refuse a shipment of a few million masks because they were unsanitary. Several cures are being proposed that would be refused in normal times. Speculators at work.

There is an OH company that just got approval for a mask disinfecting machine that allows masks to be reused, but unlikely remedy for bogus vendors.

I feel it would be wrong to introduce untested, below standard items. It might save a few lives in short term, but it would cloud the data, leading to more loss of life later on.

That's the hardest part. By the time we've learned the basics about this virus, it will be over. We'll be a little better prepared for the next one, but that will be different and nobody knows how different. And virii like this one seem to come along once every century, give or take a decade.

Reportedly some people are using 3d printers to make test swabs... maybe ask what the specific shortages are in your area.

JR

[Whoops]

I feel it would be wrong to introduce untested, below standard items. It might save a few lives in short term, but it would cloud the data, leading to more loss of life later on.

I don't really think you are seeing clearly the situation in some countries, in some hospitals...

In Italy people over 60 years old if they needed assisted breathing to survive were refused a ventilator, there were so few ventilators for so many people needing them that only under 60 years old could have one.
That means that if were 60 years old if they needed assisted breathing you would die, and yes people died and are still dying a lot, everyday, day after day.

Do you think if there was one 3D printed ventilator, below standards, in one of those hospitals at that scenario that it would not be used?

I will tell you it would be used definitely,  because it's an extreme situation and it would save lives.


How about 1000 units of 3d printed , below standards ventilators with below standard personal?

More lifes that would be saved from those above 60 years old that were condemned to death the moment they needed assisted breathing.


There's situations were something below standards that works is better than nothing.

[kambo]

I thought ventilators required a breathing tube and your completely Knocked out for the machine to work correctly

yes. u need to be knocked down, its not about using the machine...

you need you adjust PRESSURE and OXYGEN LEVEL... 
DO NOT TRY USE IT URSELF...


edit: just to clarify :
u need to adjust amount/level of everything... reason of using those machines is to
push OXYGEN in to your blood too. not just keep u breathing... its pretty complex procedure.
u need to have anatomic knowledge...
if that was only about keeping you breathing, u could use any elastic plastic bottle,
and keep pushing air in to ur lungs with a simple DIY motorised clamp! u dont need 3d printer for any of the part.


ps: this is from prof. doctors i have been talking to. my first plan was to built one too. i do robotics all day long!
this is extremely simple robotic project for a single user, but i am convinced not to build one.
do ur self a favour, and call ambulance if u are out of breath etc!

[Whoops]

u need to adjust amount/level of everything... reason of using those machines is to
push OXYGEN in to your blood too. not just keep u breathing... its pretty complex procedure.
u need to have anatomic knowledge...

Yes, Knowledge that anyone can learn.

There are quite a few open source projects for ventilators,

"Right now there are four projects better defined than others:

* Low-Cost Open Source Ventilator is buildable, pressure tested, and active. We recommend that project and its creator, Johnny Lee, be given all the money and volunteer assistance it needs.

* The Rice OEDK Design: ApolloBVM, is buildable from the write-up and pressure tested, but not active.

* Open Source Ventilator — OpenLung BVM Ventilator is a well-organized, active, fully open project, but as of this writing not buildable.

* There is another project (Protofy Team OxyGEN) which is buildable and active but not pressure tested.
The situation may change quickly, but right now these four projects are the only projects that are even minimally actionable."

You have links to these projects here:

https://hackernoon.com/open-source-ventilator-projects-status-challenges-how-you-can-help-j3sw3wy1

this one looks quite promising:

https://www.oxygen.protofy.xyz/

[Whoops]

"Disaster-relief provisions

On March 24, 2020, the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) enacted Emergency Use Authorizations[15] to allow the use of additional devices, including: "Ventilators, positive pressure breathing devices modified for use as ventilators (collectively referred to as 'ventilators'), ventilator tubing connectors, and ventilator accessories". This was done in accordance with its February 4 declaration[16] for medical countermeasures against the coronavirus disease 2019, and the equipment is subject to the FDA's "criteria for safety, performance and labeling."

[kambo]

good luck killing ur self 

[Whoops]

good luck killing ur self 

I'm much more interested in wishing you and your family good luck and long lifes.

[kambo]

I'm much more interested in wishing you and your family good luck and long lifes.

i wish the same... 

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