dogears

stay at home type 69 project
« on: April 07, 2020, 12:12:35 AM »
So I decided to do a stay home project, to ease some anxiety.  Helios type 69, with some guidance from Ian's brilliant project for the EQ.

Anyone see any glaring issues here?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:22:02 AM by dogears »


JohnRoberts

Re: Covid type 69
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 01:33:12 AM »
just the name...

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

ruffrecords

Re: Covid type 69
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 07:08:23 AM »
Couple of technical points.

The use of a tap on the secondary for the -20dB pad position on the mic input always was a dubious idea. Probably better to replace this with a balanced pad at the transformer input.

The gain make up amplifier has limited headroom. It is not really meant as an output amplifier. Probably better to replace it with the proper Helios line output amp.

The additional very high frequency selections in my design were not in the original. The Carhnill inductor used can give some odd out of band behaviour at these frequencies which are probably due to parasitics in the components. You might like to review the inclusion of these extra frequencies.

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

dogears

Re: Covid type 69
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 10:04:51 AM »
Thanks Ian!

I think I'm going to make a version with an 8 pin footprint for the input transformer.

Re: Covid type 69
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 10:47:59 AM »
I dont mean to be unkind or to dampen your spirit , but +1 on the thread name change. 

dogears

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 11:22:32 AM »
fixed title

JohnRoberts

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 12:22:35 PM »
fixed title
thanx, some things best kept in the brewery

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

dogears

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 12:36:13 PM »
I didn't mean it in any sense other than - something to do while I'm stuck at home. Sorry for any disturbance caused.

dogears

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2020, 01:07:46 PM »
I made a couple different versions if people would like to build.

One is true to the original schematic, with only minor changes, using the Sowter in 500 series.

The second is the same card but with molex connections to rack mount. Gives flexibility with input transformers if you want.

The third uses a "US-style" 8 pin input transformer (like a Cinemag CMMI10 or a Jensen 110K) with a switchable pad as Ian recommends, and uses a two transistor output buffer to up the output drive a bit.  Also 500 series.

All boms, gerbers, etc can be found here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c9bpexgojyhycke/AAA9Qdhxy3iulcDAsCeTTL6Qa?dl=0

I have not built or tested this, so there may be errors! Use at your own risk.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 03:39:41 PM by dogears »

ruffrecords

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 05:34:43 PM »
Are you sure R55 is the correct value  at 6.2 ohms?. There is roughly one diode drop across it which according to my calculator is 100mA. Seems a little on the high side. Or have I missed something?

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'


dogears

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020, 07:09:18 PM »
You know, that came from the buffer that was supposedly added to Lenny Kravits desk by Dave Amels...shared by Winston here:

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=1222.msg930095#msg930095

He did mention a heatsink is required, but I can't see why you'd need 100 mA for this job. 20R  / 30 mA should be plenty I'd think. 18 dBu peak into 600 ohms...?

Ah he was driving a 1:2. Without the transformer we shouldn't need nearly as much.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 07:27:58 PM by dogears »

ruffrecords

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 07:47:36 PM »
You know, that came from the buffer that was supposedly added to Lenny Kravits desk by Dave Amels...shared by Winston here:

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=1222.msg930095#msg930095

He did mention a heatsink is required, but I can't see why you'd need 100 mA for this job. 20R  / 30 mA should be plenty I'd think. 18 dBu peak into 600 ohms...?

Ah he was driving a 1:2. Without the transformer we shouldn't need nearly as much.

Even with a 1:2 you should need no more than half that tops.

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

Rocinante

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020, 06:32:22 AM »
Dogears; this is an amazingly comprehensive redesign on the original. I'm going to try it out when i can but it looks very promising.
If there's a harder way to do this, I haven't found it yet.

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2020, 11:25:18 AM »
Makes me wanna put on mid to late 60's records REALLY LOUD !,
like Marshall stack loud ,and blast the whole town with sounds
lets dial in some extra THD for good measure  :D

TwentyTrees

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2020, 05:55:07 AM »
Really appreciate your generosity in sharing your work here so freely. Colour me interested!

Whoops

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2020, 04:14:40 PM »
yesterday I started thinking what could I do to help dogears  "stay at home type 69 project",
as I think it's a great idea.

I was able to find my full Tech docs of the Helios Musicland Console.
I spent the evening scanning the files and processing them.

I'm uploading them individually to the technical docs section.
If anyone wants the compilation in pdf format just pm me your email.

Wish this is useful for this projects and future projects

Whoops

Re: Covid type 69
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2020, 07:18:38 PM »
Couple of technical points.

The use of a tap on the secondary for the -20dB pad position on the mic input always was a dubious idea. Probably better to replace this with a balanced pad at the transformer input.

The gain make up amplifier has limited headroom. It is not really meant as an output amplifier. Probably better to replace it with the proper Helios line output amp.

I totally understand your technical points Ian, and I understand the urge to overcome the original circuit technical limitations.

But in my personal opinion, not coming from someone that designs great circuits like Ian does, couldn't those technical limitations be part of the Helios sound?
Could they be part of the reasons we also like the sound of the records  that are associated with Helios?

There's probably a lot of different ways the circuits could be improved but personally I already have a lot of different mic pre and circuit designs, with some circuits with high headroom and flatter frequency response, to build an Helios Type 69 module or circuit I would prefer to keep it as much as possible close to the original circuits.

I mean no disrespect to your opinions Ian, quite the opposite, it's just a different opinion.

Checking the Musicland schematics for the input modules , there's 3 versions:

Version 1 - uses 15C1 as the mic pre and  15C1 as the eq makeup (probably used Lustraphone input tx)
Version 2 - uses 2128 as the mic pre and  a "modified 2128"  as the eq makeup (probably used Lustraphone input tx)
Version 3 -  uses a different transformer, it's a Beyer, and  2128 as the mic pre and 22113  as the eq makeup

For the info I gathered on Helios the version 3 doesn't seem to be the most common one, most of the consoles of the records I like seem to be either version 1 or version 2

on this Musicland console,
MMC1 seems to be the bus output amplifier and 15C1 (V1 and V2)  and 22113 (V3) seem to be used also has the Fader amplifier,
with all 11 outputs (8 multitrack outs, Echo1 send, Echo2 send and Foldback out) having unbalanced outputs.
Master L+R use 22117/8 as the output amp with unbalanced out also.
If I'm not seeing something right please correct me

« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 09:23:22 PM by Whoops »

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2020, 02:47:40 PM »
I made a couple different versions if people would like to build.

One is true to the original schematic, with only minor changes, using the Sowter in 500 series.

The second is the same card but with molex connections to rack mount. Gives flexibility with input transformers if you want.

The third uses a "US-style" 8 pin input transformer (like a Cinemag CMMI10 or a Jensen 110K) with a switchable pad as Ian recommends, and uses a two transistor output buffer to up the output drive a bit.  Also 500 series.

All boms, gerbers, etc can be found here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c9bpexgojyhycke/AAA9Qdhxy3iulcDAsCeTTL6Qa?dl=0

I have not built or tested this, so there may be errors! Use at your own risk.

Any chance of an OEP footprint for the input transformer? Those Lundahls are expensive.

dogears

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2020, 03:53:44 PM »
I don't know what OEP input you want.

Whoops

Re: stay at home type 69 project
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2020, 09:55:12 PM »
Any chance of an OEP footprint for the input transformer? Those Lundahls are expensive.

So don't use Lundahls, use Sowter.

It's the Sowter 7490


 

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