john12ax7

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2020, 02:21:18 PM »
I don't think the state is more democrat now because mail voters were  more likely to vote democrat.

Even if it is the reason,  so what ? Voting is a right, and thus should be protected.  Why do people find it ok for both parties to pick and choose which rights should be protected?


fazer

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2020, 02:49:55 PM »
Quote
Why do people find it ok for both parties to pick and choose which rights should be protected?

Not just but they rig it for their choices making it impossible to get other people on the tickets or new parties to compete.   

Biden vs a super smart Andrew Yang who could I feel bridge some divide.   This whole thing makes independents and party people hate each other when the two choices Biden / Trump are the best they can offer?  How do breaks up the mess that’s been going on and getting worse every cycle.

boji

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2020, 03:09:02 PM »
Quote
Republicans are called conservative because they want to conserve traditional values.

True. A nuance I never entertained in my youth is that republicans also conserve progressive ideas that have been adopted and were found to repeatedly work.  Retaining progress as distinct from making progress is valuable, and we need those high in industriousness and disagreeability to 'tie us to the mast' as it were, to achieve balance with creative types high in trait openness and agreeableness who are intrested in plotting new courses.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 06:34:34 PM by boji »

john12ax7

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2020, 03:48:24 PM »
Biden vs a super smart Andrew Yang who could I feel bridge some divide.   This whole thing makes independents and party people hate each other when the two choices Biden / Trump are the best they can offer?  How do breaks up the mess that’s been going on and getting worse every cycle.

Yang seemed very logical and reasonable,  something you would think would be desirable in a leader.  But unfortunately that doesn't seem to garner much votes.

Instead it's a raging battle of which side is less  corrupt and incompetent. A viable solution would be a much needed and welcome change.

living sounds


JohnRoberts

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2020, 11:49:24 AM »
Another high profile Trump crony arrested and charged with fraud:

https://www.axios.com/steve-bannon-charged-fraud-199c43c1-2e75-4535-8eb0-d96558c9f777.html?stream=top&utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts_all
Um...  https://www.npr.org/2020/08/14/902518714/ex-fbi-lawyer-charged-in-case-linked-to-alleged-abuse-of-surveillance-power
Quote from: npr
Former FBI lawyer Kevin Clinesmith has agreed to plead guilty to a single false statement charge, marking the first criminal action in an investigation centered on how intelligence agencies gathered information involving the Trump campaign and Russia four years ago in the waning months of the Obama administration.
-----
Durham's exact focus is a closely held secret, but he also has reached out to former senior officials, including Obama's CIA director, John Brennan, to schedule interviews in recent weeks. Durham has also begun to use a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C.

I expect more results from the Durham investigation to trickle out in the weeks leading up to the Nov vote. We may get multiple October surprises this year. One question is how high up into the prior administration they will go.

Of course I can't predict the future but Durham has already been investigating this for a year or more. Now is time for the key players to get questioned under oath. Since the people asking the questions already know the answers. If they lie they are guilty of process crime (lying to the government), if they admit to criminal behavior they are guilty (like Clinesmith).   

JR
It's nice to be nice....

living sounds

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2020, 12:58:13 PM »
John, you ARE the king of whataboutisms.

This is about Trump's campaign manager as well as White House Chief of staff! Another one in a long line of criminals surrounding this president.

So one former FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to a single false statement charge.

But: Two days ago, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded the following:

Trump and his campaign were added and abaited by the Russians in an an "ongoing aggressive attempt".

Trump lied to federal investigator Robert Mueller (commited perjury under oath, written)!

Trump's

- Foreign Policy Adviser
- political consultant
- National Campaign Chairman
- Deputy Campaign Chairman
- National Security adviser
- personal attorney
- Attorney General


all lied UNDER OATH about contact with the Russians!

In other words:

Ben Sasse, Marco Rubio, Tom Cotton John Cornyn  have concluded that...

...the government should have been investigating what was going on in the Trump campaign

...that the Trump Campagain manager was working with a Russian agent

...Carter Page was doing suspicious things that warrented him being looked at by the people in the US government because of his activities with Russia.

...these activities posed "a grave counterintelligence thread".


You HAVE to be completely blinded by partisanship not to see things for what they are here. I rest my case.

JohnRoberts

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2020, 02:24:49 PM »
John, you ARE the king of whataboutisms.

This is about Trump's campaign manager as well as White House Chief of staff! Another one in a long line of criminals surrounding this president.

So one former FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to a single false statement charge.

But: Two days ago, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded the following:

Trump and his campaign were added and abaited by the Russians in an an "ongoing aggressive attempt".

Trump lied to federal investigator Robert Mueller (commited perjury under oath, written)!

Trump's

- Foreign Policy Adviser
- political consultant
- National Campaign Chairman
- Deputy Campaign Chairman
- National Security adviser
- personal attorney
- Attorney General


all lied UNDER OATH about contact with the Russians!

In other words:

Ben Sasse, Marco Rubio, Tom Cotton John Cornyn  have concluded that...

...the government should have been investigating what was going on in the Trump campaign

...that the Trump Campagain manager was working with a Russian agent

...Carter Page was doing suspicious things that warrented him being looked at by the people in the US government because of his activities with Russia.

...these activities posed "a grave counterintelligence thread".


You HAVE to be completely blinded by partisanship not to see things for what they are here. I rest my case.
You sound like you need a rest...

I consider it significant that the Obama administration FBI lawyer altered evidence to secure a spying warrant against Trump campaign. 

There is some speculation that he was only charged with false statement rather than altering evidence a more significant crime, supporting speculation that he may be cooperating with the Durham investigation.  It is a common strategy to flip low level actors to get testimony incriminating higher ups. That is pretty much FBI was trying to do with low level Trump campaign guys.

I still can not predict the future other than to expect more such indictments to drop over the next several weeks. 

JR

PS: Another observation is how in heated political discourse people accuse you of exactly what they are doing... If I am the king of whataboutism, what is your remarkable list of accusations? (rhetorical you don't need to answer).
It's nice to be nice....

john12ax7

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2020, 03:09:52 PM »
You guys are giving a nice demonstration of what I wrote a few posts back  :)

crazydoc

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2020, 04:20:01 PM »
Yup, all politicians are crooks (except Nixon, of course.)
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.


Recording Engineer

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2020, 04:20:58 PM »
It is a common strategy to flip low level actors to get testimony incriminating higher ups. That is pretty much FBI was trying to do with low level Trump campaign guys.

I still can not predict the future other than to expect more such indictments to drop over the next several weeks. 

JR

Other than common strategy, have any other reasons why you expect more indictments?

I personally don’t expect anything more, unless there’s a released investigational report that might indicate otherwise.

However, there’s plenty of actual convictions already on the other side that seem to be overlooked often from the far-right.

By the way, to be clear, I’m all for Klinesmith’s conviction.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 04:28:40 PM by Recording Engineer »

hodad

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2020, 04:50:37 PM »
You sound like you need a rest...

I consider it significant that the Obama administration FBI lawyer altered evidence to secure a spying warrant against Trump campaign. 


Seriously weak, John.  When confronted by a list of wrongdoing by Trump and minions, the best you can do is come at  an "Obama" lawyer.  Did Obama appoint this lawyer?  Lots of people work in the FBI through multiple administrations of both parties. 

And as best I've been able to discern, he altered an email (which is unacceptable), but he didn't misrepresent factual information. 

If Trump and his appointees (including and perhaps especially Bill Barr) were held to the same standard, they'd all be serving life in prison right now. 

All Bill Barr does is dig to find any undotted "i" or uncrossed "t" that might be used to serve Trump.  He has no interest in the rule of law or the welfare of this nation; his only mission (as he sees it) is to protect Big Daddy Trump. 

And the Republican faithful, more and more desperate for something, anything to reaffirm  their ever more challenged belief in their party,  grab these mere shreds and hold them up like shields in an effort to protect themselves from the monstrous truth:  the GOP has become a morally bankrupt, unprincipled pit of grift, graft and corruption. 

SAD.

JohnRoberts

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2020, 05:31:21 PM »
Other than common strategy, have any other reasons why you expect more indictments?
Probably some wishful thinking and gossip... these guys don't leak stuff like the other team.
Quote
I personally don’t expect anything more, unless there’s a released investigational report that might indicate otherwise.
The IG report suggested wrong doing but was not set up to issue indictments, the Durham investigation OTOH is and was designated a criminal investigation back in Oct 2019 signaling criminal charges could be forthcoming.

I don't expect Clinesmith to be the last but the first from this grand jury investigation.

It is also against the law for DOJ actions to intentionally influence elections (which seems all but impossible in this case). Perhaps thats why the Clinesmith announcement was made on sleepy summer friday afternoon. I'm sure President Trump sees this as political ammunition, but by law these political sensitive revalations need to be 60 days before the vote (sept 4th ) like two weeks from now. Durham hasn't even interviewed several witnesses like John Brennan.

Clearly Comey was not following the 60 day rule when he reopened the Hillary email investigation when he did just before the election. Fired AG Sally Yates threw Comey under the bus (saying that he went rogue). The rats are trying to distance themselves from each other.

Smarter people than me say that the 60 day rule does not apply to the Durham investigation because neither Biden or Trump are targets of the actual investigation. This could reflect poorly on VP Biden depending on how high up it goes but the messaging is telegraphing that Biden is not a target. There are more than enough miscreants who did enough bad stuff to send some corrective feedback.

The closest I've seen to this in my tender few years paying attention to domestic politics was Richard Nixon and the Watergate "plumbers" break into the DNC to steal opposition information.  This seems worse by several degrees, Trump appears to have been spied on by a sitting administration using our own FBI and national intelligence community. Nixon's plumbers were amateurs by comparison. 


Quote
However, there’s plenty of actual convictions already on the other side that seem to be overlooked often from the far-right.
Bannon appears to be caught with his hand in the cookie jar, hard to imagine what he was thinking if at all...
Quote
By the way, to be clear, I’m all for Klinesmith’s conviction.
He is a low level puke... but spying on american citizens for political purposes is unacceptable IMO. Clinesmith was just a cog in the gears grinding out this abuse of the system, not the leadership. He needs to get his wrist slapped and hopefully share what he knows.   

For the record I do not claim this is anything more but the first drip from what I expect to me multiple revelations from the durham investigation.

JR
It's nice to be nice....

living sounds

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2020, 06:27:39 PM »
[...] Trump appears to have been spied on by a sitting administration using our own FBI and national intelligence community.

Truly stunning Ministry of Truth level of distortion of the facts.

Trump's campaign was being investigated by the responsible authorities, the latter doing their job defending and upholding the Constitution, because the former were coordinating with a foreign adversary.

living sounds

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2020, 06:37:25 PM »

crazydoc

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2020, 06:41:19 PM »
Small-minded me is happy that people who believed in and contributed to that wall debacle got screwed. "We're going to build a border wall, and Mexico is going to pay for it."  How stupid and naive can they be.

Go ahead and vote for him again: f**k me once, shame on you; f**k me twice, shame on me.
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

crazydoc

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2020, 06:47:30 PM »
Top GOP National Security Officials Back Biden:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-biden-republicans-idUSKBN25G2C5
Thanks for that link - couldn't say it better myself:

Bob Tuttle, who was director of personnel under Reagan and ambassador to the UK under George W. Bush, is a member of the national security group and said Trump’s handling of the coronavirus crisis had been “abominable.”

“He’s a malignant narcissist. He’s a liar. He’s a despicable human being and the worst president in American history - it’s not even close,” Tuttle told Reuters.
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

Recording Engineer

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2020, 12:25:54 AM »
There are more than enough miscreants who did enough bad stuff to send some corrective feedback.

The closest I've seen to this in my tender few years paying attention to domestic politics was Richard Nixon and the Watergate "plumbers" break into the DNC to steal opposition information.  This seems worse by several degrees, Trump appears to have been spied on by a sitting administration using our own FBI and national intelligence community. Nixon's plumbers were amateurs by comparison.

So to be clear, you honestly believe this spying went high-up in the chain of command, though probably not as high as VP (while Trump spouts that it was Obama himself and should be prosecuted, as one of his many continuous rally-cries for his base), by two huge service departments of government, and there was absolutely no legitimate reason for it?

Even though there’s actual convictions of people around Trump? And absolutely all those convictions have absolutely nothing to do with some people in the Trump campaign trying to illegally coordinate with foreign influence. That Trump and his campaign are victims of the United States government? That they didn’t bring all this on themselves? I’d like to see how that would play out in court.

Was there a group of people willing to do illegals things to try and catch them? Possibly. Certainly not unheard of in the world of policing! Obviously at least one we know of so far. But what you seem to be putting out there so far doesn’t seem to add up to me.

I mean, I’m all for policing the police. What you’re talking about is systematic and is apart of what this time is happening in the streets right now.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 01:52:02 AM by Recording Engineer »

JohnRoberts

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2020, 11:12:12 AM »
Yup, all politicians are crooks (except Nixon, of course.)
When a politician says "I am not a crook" , he surely is.  President Nixon drafted me so screw him....

JR
It's nice to be nice....

JohnRoberts

Re: team politics talking points.
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2020, 11:31:38 AM »
So to be clear, you honestly believe this spying went high-up in the chain of command, though probably not as high as VP (while Trump spouts that it was Obama himself and should be prosecuted, as one of his many continuous rally-cries for his base), by two huge service departments of government, and there was absolutely no legitimate reason for it?

Even though there’s actual convictions of people around Trump? And absolutely all those convictions have absolutely nothing to do with some people in the Trump campaign trying to illegally coordinate with foreign influence. That Trump and his campaign are victims of the United States government? That they didn’t bring all this on themselves? I’d like to see how that would play out in court.

Was there a group of people willing to do illegals things to try and catch them? Possibly. Certainly not unheard of in the world of policing! Obviously at least one we know of so far. But what you seem to be putting out there so far doesn’t seem to add up to me.

I mean, I’m all for policing the police. What you’re talking about is systematic and is apart of what this time is happening in the streets right now.
It's not about what I believe, it's about what the DOJ can prove.

This will all be revealed soon enough, the Durham investigation was delayed over the last several months by COVID making it difficult to investigate individuals face to face. This investigation will likely still not be completely finished by the Nov vote.  For purely political purposes one would expect a pre-vote end point timeline. 

JR

PS: Yesterday I retired my old worn out flag by burning it. Ironically haters burn the American flag trying to disrespect it while accidentally honoring it.  ::) Iran dishonored the American flag pretty effectively by painting a flag onto a city street for everybody to walk on. In the middle east the bottom of a shoe is extreme disrespect.

I replaced my worn flag with a new "blue lives matters" flag, unsure if that now makes me a white supremacist, or am I still just a deplorable racist, sexist, whatever...  8) 
It's nice to be nice....


 

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