C12 or 251
« on: April 27, 2020, 11:22:32 AM »
Hi all !

I'm about to (finally) start building my new mic !

I'm really in beetwin a c12 or a 251 !

I do have Beesneez cap, Haufe t14/1 transfo & vintage 6072 5stars ! :)

I'll do mostly vocals (HipHop & Rnb), gtrs, and some time brasses / strings

Which one would you advise ?

Cheers


TillM

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 04:37:22 AM »
C12 if you are an inexperienced mic builder, because the documentation from the build is much better then for the 251.
Maybe plenty of people will argument against me and it’s just my opinion, but:
I realized after building are handful of mics.
The biggest difference makes the capsule and not the circuit, so build whatever you fancy more.

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 03:35:00 PM »
I'm about to (finally) start building my new mic !
I'm really in beetwin a c12 or a 251 !
I'll do mostly vocals (HipHop & Rnb), gtrs, and some time brasses / strings
Which one would you advise ?
lets compare:
simple cathode bias (251)
or the "creative" biasing in the C12.
some folks like complication.

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 06:56:13 PM »
lets compare:
simple cathode bias (251)
or the "creative" biasing in the C12.
some folks like complication.

Can you explain a bit more ?
How does it affect the sound ?  ;)

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 09:21:05 PM »
Can you explain a bit more ?
How does it affect the sound ?  ;)
they both sound fantastic (imho).
"ears" have preferred the 251 by a small margin.
the 251 is biasing is easier to build and troubleshoot the tube/mic.
the biasing topic has been discussed extensively.
am sure you have studied the differences.

another advantage of the 251 circuit is the compatibility with most Neumann AC701  microphones.
if you have or planning on KM54/KM56 type mics,  simply insert a 20 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor in the cable connector,
in series with the heater supply.
Not a problem fitting  in a 5 pin XLR.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:38:22 PM by gridcurrent »

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 01:29:54 PM »
the 251 is biasing is easier to build and troubleshoot the tube/mic.
the biasing topic has been discussed extensively.
am sure you have studied the differences.

another advantage of the 251 circuit is the compatibility with most Neumann AC701  microphones.
if you have or planning on KM54/KM56 type mics,  simply insert a 20 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor in the cable connector,
in series with the heater supply.
Not a problem fitting  in a 5 pin XLR.

Oo.. no ! havn't seen it !
I'll go to look for it  :)

I'm not planning to build an other one soon after ;)
Too much other stuff are interesting, no need for a KM

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2020, 02:59:28 PM »
m251 polarization circuit  in cardioid mode sounds much better than remote variable polar pattern one on C12

Also gives better S/N ratio by about 3db

No capacitor between the capsule and the tube grid

analag

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2020, 03:36:31 AM »
After building 11 or so mics, most of them tube. 7 pin and miniature are my preference in tube type with not more than a 6.5:1 step down ratio. I can tell you that a solid state mic might be the thing for Hip Hop and RnB.  That into a fluffy sounding tube pre into something like an 1176 and you're golden. Just sayin!
Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour.

rockinrob86

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 10:01:20 PM »
A thing to remember with all of the high end tube mics is that they were designed to provide some version of "Accurate".  The problem with this is, there is no such thing, so all of these go about this goal in a different way. 

If I were recording hip hop vocals, I think I would first go to an sm7b - they have a nice aggressive thing and the proximity effect, and the singer will be less likely to drift away from the mic and lose the proximity.

My next choice would probably be a u47fet, again because of the aggressive thing.  They are just faster than the tube mics.  U87 would also be quick to mind.

U67 could be a good choice due to the nice high frequency thing they have going on, but with the big lows too.   

U47 is a go to for many things for me, but is really fantastic for its softer highs and nice big low mids, although this needs to match the song/singer.  I find for my own voice usually my 47 or 67 clones are the ticket, and I prefer the 67 for songs that need the excitement.

I have a 251 clone with a beezneez capsule and a cinemag transformer.  It sounds fantastic and is a go to instrument mic, and also can't be beat on some vocalists.  It has even more excitement to it than the 67 and is the cliched mic of choice for female singers, and I like it to add some excitement to lower voiced men.  I could see it being perfect for the right hip hop voice, but also annoying with some voices.  I haven't heard the c12 circuit, but I think between the 2, I would pick the 251.  and I did!

Anyways, long post to say there really isn't one mic to do everything.

Gus

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 08:20:37 AM »
After building 11 or so mics, most of them tube. 7 pin and miniature are my preference in tube type with not more than a 6.5:1 step down ratio. I can tell you that a solid state mic might be the thing for Hip Hop and RnB.  That into a fluffy sounding tube pre into something like an 1176 and you're golden. Just sayin!

Are you still building microphones with tubes? I thought you would be solid state by now.


Michael Tibes

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2020, 08:39:59 AM »
Just interested: what body would you use for the 251 version? And doesn't the 251 use an ac701k?

Michael

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2020, 03:10:40 PM »
Had to replace an AC 701 in an AKG C60. Claus Heyne said in a post from a few years ago, that the 5784WA was the closest thing to an AC 701. The difference being; AC 701 needs 4vdc on filament & 5784 has a 6.3vdc filament. after completely redesigning the power supply, it sounded exactly the way it did with the AC 701.

Re: C12 or 251
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2020, 03:20:35 PM »
251 is one of the best sounding vocal mics ever in my opinion. If I were to take a mic project on i'd be between a 251 and a u47, since you already have the parts I'd recommend a 251. During shoot outs between 251, u67, and a u47, I'm always shocked at my preference.

Ryan


 

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