sonolink

Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« on: May 15, 2020, 05:20:05 PM »
I have 2 tube based preamp stompboxes I built recently. First one is JTM45 based, the other is a Fender AB763 single channel.





I would like to be able to place a speaker simulator at the output and balance it to plug it into a mixer or a soundcard.
I found this speaker simulator:



And this very simple balancing circuit on the Elliott Sound Website:



Can someone please tell me if I feed it 9v can I connect it to the output of the stompbox after the cabsim to have a balanced out?

Thanks a lot
Cheers
Sono
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou


john12ax7

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 05:28:14 AM »
For an opamp you need to split the rail, meaning bias the non-inverting to 4.5V with a 9V supply. It's a common technique in pedals.

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 05:58:25 AM »
And this very simple balancing circuit on the Elliott Sound Website:



Can someone please tell me if I feed it 9v can I connect it to the output of the stompbox after the cabsim to have a balanced out?
As John already mentioned, you'll have to modify the circuit for single rail operation. Many examples are available on the net; however, if you're not comfortable with it, we can provide you assistance.
You may have to increase R1 to about 100k, in consideration for the 4.7k resistance at the output of the cab simulator.

For a more complete approach, check attached pic
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 06:09:42 AM by abbey road d enfer »
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

john12ax7

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 06:37:44 PM »
Actually what Abbey posted is better, as the output of Q3 is already close to +4.5V, you can tie it right to the non-inverting input as shown.  Don't forget about DC blocking caps on the output of the opamp. I would wire the output impedance balance as recommended by Jensen, you can see some good info here:

https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Interconnection_of_Balanced_and-Unbalanced-Equipment.pdf

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 03:03:00 PM »
Hi guys,

First of all, thanks A LOT for your feedback to both of you!!
Sorry if it took me a few days to reply but this is still a bit dense to me.
I'm trying to understand and digest all this info and do my homework so please bear with me :)

The original Cabsim circuit was designed with J201 and BC550/BC560s. I can't find these at Mouser, they're way obsolete. I can't find cheap J201 TO92 subs so I'll probably get some MMBFJ201  instead and use a small adapter board for them. Can I sub the BC550/BC560s with BC546/BC556s? I found some with extensions BC546CTA/BC556ATA but I don't know if they have the same gain and/or are compatible to be used in the circuit.

Now on to the balanced output circuit. I read the article by Bill Whitlock, that I found very interesting (thanks for the link). I understand (well I try) the concept looking at the typical unbalanced and balanced outputs schematics he shows. But then I get lost at some things you mention :(
Sorry for the language barrier...
 
For an opamp you need to split the rail, meaning bias the non-inverting to 4.5V with a 9V supply. It's a common technique in pedals.
You mean like this?


You may have to increase R1 to about 100k, in consideration for the 4.7k resistance at the output of the cab simulator.
You mean the resistor between the opamp +input (pin 3) and GND, right?

For a more complete approach, check attached pic

Sorry if I'm slow, I'm trying my best to follow...
The pic says "output of the cabsim goes into opamp pin3 after a 10k resistor between the output and GND, and 9v to pin 4 and GND to pin 8"?

So the Elliott Sound Website circuit is ok? I'm asking because he says it's cheating and after reading the Jensen paper I don't know...wouldn't this be the proper way to go?



Thanks again for your time and help
Cheers
Sono
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 07:34:14 PM »
Can I sub the BC550/BC560s with BC546/BC556s?
You can probably replace them with any NPN that you have lying in your dirtbox. Not critical.

Quote
Forget about this; I showed you how.

Quote
You mean the resistor between the opamp +input (pin 3) and GND, right?
Correct.

Quote
So the Elliott Sound Website circuit is ok?
No it's not. It is known as the "Tascam problem". Impedance balanced is preferrable, particularly if the unit is connected to various equipment.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 06:08:45 AM »
No it's not. It is known as the "Tascam problem". Impedance balanced is preferrable, particularly if the unit is connected to various equipment.

I'm sorry about the language barrier but I'm not sure if you mean I should use a different circuit altogether and are inviting me to look for it on the net (which I'll be glad to do) or if I should use the Elliott Sound schematic I posted before with the changes you made.

I'm doing a search to read and try to understand "impedance balanced" vs "opposite polarity"...

Cheers
Sono
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:47:41 AM by sonolink »
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 06:24:03 AM »
Abbey, thanks a lot for your reply. I'm sorry about the language barrier but I'm not sure if you mean I should use a different circuit altogether and are inviting me to look for it on the net (which I'll be glad to do) or if I should use the Elliott Sound schematic I posted before with the changes you made.
Use the circuit from Ellior Sound that you posted at the bottom of your first post.

Quote
I'm doing a search to read and try to understand "impedance balanced" vs "opposite polarity"...
Many people think balancing is about having symmetrical voltages, i.e. one leg has a signal and the other leg has the same signal but inverted in polarity. This is of limited interest. It allows 6dB more output than unbalanced, that's all, and doesn't really matter in practice.
The benefits of "balancing" signals is hum and interference rejection, which relies on the two legs having the same impedance (as far as outputs are concerned). This condition is utterly independant of the way signals are presented.
Impedance balance is cheap, works well and is never unstable.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 07:10:35 AM »
Use the circuit from Ellior Sound that you posted at the bottom of your first post.

Excellent. Thanks!

The benefits of "balancing" signals is hum and interference rejection, which relies on the two legs having the same impedance (as far as outputs are concerned). This condition is utterly independant of the way signals are presented.

That's what I'm trying to grasp now. For years to me it seemed obvious and easy to understand that balancing was using the cancelling property of 2 inverted polarity exact copies to "preserve" signal integrity. From what I read so far I get the impression that impedance balancing is almost the opposite, meaning that instead of "encoding" the signal, the signal is the "difference".
Not sure this makes much sense actually :)

A simple technical question please: is it ok to sub the J201 with any JFet N-channel like a BF256 (marked as N-Channel transistor on Mouser) or a J111 (marked as N-Channel SWITCH)? If not I'll go the SMD way :)

Thanks again for your time and help :)
Cheers
Sono
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 07:58:45 AM »
A simple technical question please: is it ok to sub the J201 with any JFet N-channel like a BF256 (marked as N-Channel transistor on Mouser) or a J111 (marked as N-Channel SWITCH)? If not I'll go the SMD way :)
I'd probably favour the BF256, but both could work, since the source follower is very tolerant.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.


sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2020, 08:00:03 AM »
Excellent. Thanks a lot Abbey. I'll report back soon :)
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 09:15:27 AM »
I bumped into this schematic for the same Speaker Simulator I intend to use, only this version says it includes a DI out. Is that really a balanced out? If so, maybe this option would be simpler and avoid having to use another opamp?



Cheers
Sono
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2020, 11:30:58 AM »
I bumped into this schematic for the same Speaker Simulator I intend to use, only this version says it includes a DI out. Is that really a balanced out? If so, maybe this option would be simpler and avoid having to use another opamp?



Cheers
Sono
The image is too small. I can't see any detail, however I don't see anything that would make it balanced.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2020, 11:48:35 AM »
I think you have to click on it Abbey....  ;)

Here is again as an attachment just in case

Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 12:06:06 PM »
I think you have to click on it Abbey....  ;)

Here is again as an attachment just in case
OK, it's poorly balanced. It's not as good as impedance-balanced.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2020, 12:16:22 PM »
Ok, thanks for checking that out for me  :)
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

PRR

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 01:35:03 PM »
It is terrible. The 10K resistors will not pull large line capacitance. No matter, because the lack of proper bias clips any not-small signal.

You can do better. (MUCH better.)

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2020, 03:34:26 PM »
Thanks for chiming in PRR  :)
I wish I could design and understand electronics TBH. I'm still a self taught novice in that field, still reading "Basic Electronics" by Valkenburgh trying to grasp things.

I found that schematic in another forum.
I'll stick to the Rod Elliott circuit as advised by Abbey  ;)
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou

abbey road d enfer

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2020, 04:46:12 PM »
I found that schematic in another forum.
Don't go to other forums... ;D
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

sonolink

Re: Help With adding balanced Output to stomp box pedal
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2020, 06:58:20 PM »
 ;)
Why sleep when you can mix?
M.P.Stavrou


 

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