boji

Minneapolis
« on: May 29, 2020, 07:11:40 PM »
Any forum member living around there?  Perhaps the 3rd precinct was a sort of sacrificial goat, but those  "Peace Officers"  need to huff on some of them fumes and soften arrest methods...not that it would fix the underlying issue.  :(

Someone care to explain why the other precincts did not provide any backup before it all went sixes and sevens?
Plenty of calls made during the blockade and breach.


Rocinante

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 08:24:37 PM »
I live here. George Floyd was murdered 5 blocks from my home and studio. The entirety of Lake St. has been damaged. Many minority businesses as well. Many places I eat at or get my car fixed are gone. That said, it all could have been avoided had the drug addled DA just charged the cop who murdered George Floyd to begin with. I protested with everyone else then returned later that night with milk and provisions for the protesters remaining. The police were shooting indiscriminately at anyone. 17 year old girls to 70 year old men. Several of my friends got broken bones from rubber bullets. One received a dislodged jaw. We have been fighting this fight for year but this was the worst we've seen. There were a ton of out of town opportunist who looted everywhere they could. The club my band played before the pandemic hit was burned to the ground. Ironically it's a popular Somali, African American, and Native American hang out. Its really sad but needed to happen. Pretty much the mayor decided to just let it burn and not try to stop people as there would definitely be more cops killing people of color. Many of the looters were white.
If there's a harder way to do this, I haven't found it yet.

JohnRoberts

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 08:36:14 PM »
good luck... I am still waiting for the rest of the story about the Australian tourist shot there by police a couple years ago.
=======

=====
Lots of opportunistic bad actors are attracted to such high profile conflicts.

I hope you are safe and well.

JR

PS: We have more than one member from the area IIRC.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 08:36:29 AM by JohnRoberts »
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

scott2000

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 10:00:03 PM »
Well it is nice to finally see large groups of people outside I suppose...

I have a relative in Atlanta SWAT in their deal going on.... Will be interesting to see how these different cities respond.  I heard the National Guard just pulled back from MN curfew detail... Weird...
I lived in MN and seeing the crowds reminds me of the awesome street parties in the city..... It was amazing.... Less the chaos obviously... But that was over 20 years ago....

RIP George :'(

I heard they charged the one cop with murder so far....

« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 10:06:19 PM by scott2000 »

boji

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 01:59:19 AM »
Wow. Thanks Roc for relaying your experience.  I'm sorry you had to be damn near in the epicenter of it all. Good to know you're safe and you managed to show support without getting a rubber bullet to the head.  Keep us posted, you're in our thoughts.

Hope the other member(s),  if near the area are safe as well.


fazer

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 11:27:43 AM »
Yes why was the cop with his foot not charged immediately.    That department needs overhauled.

JohnRoberts

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 01:29:30 PM »
Yes why was the cop with his foot not charged immediately.    That department needs overhauled.
He probably should have been arrested sooner pending charges but prosecutors generally don't file charges without assembling adequate evidence to prove the case. They actually filed charges quicker than usual for them in this case, and perhaps that is why they used the lesser charge of manslaughter and 3rd degree murder. They can always increase the charges severity later if evidence suggests.

Good luck to residents of Minneapolis-St Paul, and in large cities everywhere.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

pucho812

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 05:25:21 PM »
He probably should have been arrested sooner pending charges but prosecutors generally don't file charges without assembling adequate evidence to prove the case. They actually filed charges quicker than usual for them in this case, and perhaps that is why they used the lesser charge of manslaughter and 3rd degree murder. They can always increase the charges severity later if evidence suggests.

Good luck to residents of Minneapolis-St Paul, and in large cities everywhere.

JR
I think they went with  manslaughter and 3rd degree murder because  they  will be easier to prove in court.
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

JohnRoberts

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2020, 12:55:17 PM »
It is hard to talk about solutions while the rabble rousers are still rioting and destroying private property but let's try.

One data point that I found instructive is that Minneapolis police force has 20% minority representation, operating in a 39% minority community.  More minority police officers could help (some better managed large cities have equal or even over representation of some minorities).

[edit--  I saw another reference citing minneapolis as closer to 20% so it looks like police fraction is close to 1:1 representative .. they have been agressively working to reform for years. This one iconic event may be an outlier bad apple. /edit]
 
Illegal behavior by police officers can not be tolerated. Reportedly their body cameras were operating (a ruling in 2017 made camera use mandatory). The 4 officers have already been fired and will face charges, but we need to address the system that tolerated such behavior until it became public information.

Sorry, it is human nature to try to fix bad stuff... we all probably need to cool off some more. Hopefully this will lead to some constructive changes after the anarchists run out of emotional public support.

JR

« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 01:44:58 PM by JohnRoberts »
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

OneRoomStudios

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 10:14:05 AM »
I'm in MPLS. The problem here is two-fold:

-We have a corrupt and racist head of the police union, Bob Kroll (note: NOT chief of police, as some places have reported. Our chief of police, Medaria Arradondo is a stand-up guy). Kroll has protected the bad apples for years, set a tone of machismo and racism, and generally been shady as hell.

-Generally, the Twin Cities (and MN as a whole) are passively racist. Most folks, especially in the cities think of themselves as open-minded/liberal/allies, but the culture here is so white and segregated that the experience of white residents is vastly different from that of black/brown residents.

I lived in the Phillips neighborhood for six years, a few blocks from the 3rd Precinct. It's one of (if not the most) mixed areas of the cities, and has one of the worst police departments. I personally had to call the cops for a few neighborhood disturbances (domestics, fights, etc), and it would take them 30-40 mins to travel the few blocks from the precinct to my block. When they finally got there, they treated everyone as a criminal and basically told everyone, "Shut up or we're taking you all to jail." Great work.

Institutional racism is obviously a national problem, and police misconduct/brutality is definitely not limited to Minneapolis, but we have our share of local issues too. I hope this brings about some actual change.


JohnRoberts

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 11:14:54 AM »
I'm in MPLS. The problem here is two-fold:

-We have a corrupt and racist head of the police union, Bob Kroll (note: NOT chief of police, as some places have reported. Our chief of police, Medaria Arradondo is a stand-up guy). Kroll has protected the bad apples for years, set a tone of machismo and racism, and generally been shady as hell.
The new chief of police reportedly sued the city over discrimination years ago, before he was promoted.  He seems to be instituing needed reforms.

The officers were wearing body cameras so they surely did not intend to kill George Floyd, with evidence of that crime recorded in the cameras.  Obviously a mistake in application of non-lethal force, or flawed policy regarding what kind of force, and how much is allowed. Avoidable deaths are clearly not an acceptable side effect of routine policing.
Quote
-Generally, the Twin Cities (and MN as a whole) are passively racist. Most folks, especially in the cities think of themselves as open-minded/liberal/allies, but the culture here is so white and segregated that the experience of white residents is vastly different from that of black/brown residents.
So the white residents don't know that they are racist? That could hinder their self-improvement progress.
Quote
I lived in the Phillips neighborhood for six years, a few blocks from the 3rd Precinct. It's one of (if not the most) mixed areas of the cities, and has one of the worst police departments. I personally had to call the cops for a few neighborhood disturbances (domestics, fights, etc), and it would take them 30-40 mins to travel the few blocks from the precinct to my block. When they finally got there, they treated everyone as a criminal and basically told everyone, "Shut up or we're taking you all to jail." Great work.

Institutional racism is obviously a national problem, and police misconduct/brutality is definitely not limited to Minneapolis, but we have our share of local issues too. I hope this brings about some actual change.
There is a lot to learn from both the event and the reaction.  Be safe... Not just in MN but everywhere.

JR 
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

L´Andratté

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 04:47:41 PM »
Here´s an intersting article about Kroll, from an admittedly leftleaning outlet, The Intercept.
The piece is worthwhile to read, even if you´re of different political orientation.
People like him are not there by chance, a big part of the problem, but more of a symptom than a cause,
I would say.
He reminds me 101% of those James Ellroy characters of L.A.Confidential, Blood´s A Rover, etc.

https://theintercept.com/2020/06/02/minneapolis-police-union-bob-kroll-shootings/

I hope this all will lead to something good in the end.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 04:50:58 PM by L´Andratté »
"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

john12ax7

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 06:25:01 PM »
The head of the police union certainly seems part of the problem.  Who has the authority to remove / replace him?

JohnRoberts

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 10:45:11 AM »
The head of the police union certainly seems part of the problem.  Who has the authority to remove / replace him?
The union members do.

It is easy (lazy) to look for isolated bogeymen to blame.

In an attempt to realize some constructive change from this tragic event there appears to be a common theme with several high profile (police?) related events.  Media seems to have lost interest in the apparent racists who shot and killed a jogger in NC?

OK back to the police. It is already illegal to use lethal force when making an arrest (unless the officer's life is threatened). This outcome is already illegal so we need better understanding of why current training and policy is not completely successful 100% of the time.

The Minneapolis police department was already in the middle of a multiple years long reform. We will probably never drive these outlier events to zero, but we also need to look at the likely numerous arrests that used excessive force but didn't result in deaths.  We just see the few high profile incidents that go viral.

I still don't believe we have systemic racism, but we need to take advantage of the spot light on this tragic event to tighten up, training and policing policy, rather than feed racist/partisan divisiveness, that could be motivating some (many?) for political gain.

I am not a fan of unions and police officers additionally get some extra leeway from prosecutors in cases like this because they are thrust into so many violent confrontations. This leeway should not be a free pass to kill or injure, while these 4 officers are likely to be made an example of, to give the public their pound of flesh (including the officers who tried to stop the excessive force). Increasing the charges against all four seems to have calmed the street some (and feds clamping down on outside agitators has also removed that extra fuel from the fires. )

Lets try to be constructive and positive.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

L´Andratté

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2020, 03:12:44 PM »
It is easy (lazy) to look for isolated bogeymen to blame.
Uh? Who you´re talking about?
..., a big part of the problem, but more of a symptom than a cause,...

"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

boji

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2020, 04:02:27 AM »
This will be an interesting experiment:

https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety

 I'm very eager to see what happens to an area when you take away professionally-trained enforcers of law and order. Man, if it worked!  I have my concerns however... For example the average number of warrants per household in Ferguson was 3 before Michael Brown  got shot. That's around 7000 arrest warrants within a community of 21k citizens, whereas the City of Minneapolis has 20 times that number.

L´Andratté

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2020, 04:55:36 AM »
This will be an interesting experiment:

https://theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety

 I'm very eager to see what happens to an area when you take away professionally-trained enforcers of law and order. Man, if it worked!  I have my concerns however... For example the average number of warrants per household in Ferguson was 3 before Michael Brown  got shot. That's around 7000 arrest warrants within a community of 21k citizens, whereas the City of Minneapolis has 20 times that number.

I don´t fully subscribe but intersting read on that topic:
Rutger Bregman "Utopia for Realists: And How We Can Get There"
"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

scott2000

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2020, 09:15:08 AM »
So many facets of disappointment in all of this.  I just heard from my relatives in Atlanta where one of them is a SWAT member.  I guess his knee is wrecked from a brick being thrown, the wife is in the hospital now having panic attacks from all of the stress from him being in this and he's made sure his children know not to  tell anyone what he does for a living.

Just doesn't make sense. He and his family are really some of the good guys.  Very ethnically mixed family. One of a very few white guys I know that speak fluent Spanish and visits south America more than any place.  Super nice guy and family.. Just a joy to be with..

This using the Kevin Bacon game to make connections to individuals that allows for a wider spread of hate is like amputating someone's arms and legs because they have a headache imo....

Amazon supporting the sales of Blue Lives Murder T-shirts is classy.....


L´Andratté

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2020, 09:24:23 AM »
You are right. This "ACAB" thing is pure bullsh*t. Hate is hate, no matter what direction it comes from.
And it won´t lead to a better society.
"Why not get an assistant to work the faders? Real vintage! And maybe cheaper... ;)"

living sounds

Re: Minneapolis
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2020, 09:30:24 AM »
You are right. This "ACAB" thing is pure bullsh*t. Hate is hate, no matter what direction it comes from.
And it won´t lead to a better society.

Amen to that.


 

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